[] Revelation 1:18 Stephen Baldwin stbaldwi at hotmail.com
Tue Jul 12 15:07:53 EDT 2005
[] sabbatical year of Greek study [] Revelation 1:18 Ladies and Gentlemen:This is my first posting to this forum. I’m grateful for its existence and look forward to learning.Just to introduce myself, I am not a professional theologian. Just a software engineer who would die to be able to study this stuff more. I’ve just completed a basic NTG course.In chatting to some JWs recently, we discussed Rev 1:18 where the First and the Last states that “I was dead” (NIV). In the New World “translation”, “became dead”. Looking in my GNT it is writtenEGENOMHN NEKROSThe usage of GINOMAI struck me as curious and the notion of “becoming dead”. Would a use of EIMI NEKROS have worked too? Should we understand “becoming dead” as being in the state of deadness? I’d be interested to read any thoughts regarding this, regarding the use of GINOMAI as an auxiliary verb etc. Also, if you have any references that discuss these types of questions, I’d be pleased to hear from you.ThanksStephen Baldwinstbaldwi at hotmail.com
[] sabbatical year of Greek study[] Revelation 1:18
[] Revelation 1:18 George F Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Tue Jul 12 15:56:02 EDT 2005
[] Revelation 1:18 [] Revelation 1:18 On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:07:53 +0000 “Stephen Baldwin”<stbaldwi at hotmail.com> writes:> Ladies and Gentlemen:> This is my first posting to this forum. I’m grateful for its > existence and > look forward to learning.> Just to introduce myself, I am not a professional theologian. Just a > > software engineer who would die to be able to study this stuff more. > I’ve > just completed a basic NTG course.> > In chatting to some JWs recently, we discussed Rev 1:18 where the > First and > the Last states that “I was dead” (NIV). In the New World > “translation”, > “became dead”. Looking in my GNT it is written> > EGENOMHN NEKROS> > The usage of GINOMAI struck me as curious and the notion of > “becoming dead”. > Would a use of EIMI NEKROS have worked too? Should we understand > “becoming > dead” as being in the state of deadness? I’d be interested to read > any > thoughts regarding this, regarding the use of GINOMAI as an > auxiliary verb > etc. Also, if you have any references that discuss these types of > questions, > I’d be pleased to hear from you.> > Thanks> > Stephen Baldwin> stbaldwi at hotmail.com__________________KAI hO ZWN, KAI E-GENOMHN NEKROS KAI IDOU ZWN EIMI EIW TOUS AIWNAS TWNAIWNWN KAI EXW TAS KLEIS TOU QANATOU KAI TOU AiDOU.If you check a good lexicon such as BDAG (and if you don’t have this, getit), you will find that the concept which connects the usages (“come intobeing”, “to change location”, etc.) is that of a change of state orplace. He IS the living one, but he BECAME dead, and now he is alive. The significance is the (temporary) change of state.georgegfsomsel___________
[] Revelation 1:18[] Revelation 1:18
[] Revelation 1:18 Harold R. Holmyard III hholmyard at ont.com
Tue Jul 12 15:52:52 EDT 2005
[] Revelation 1:18 [] Revelation 1:18 Dear Stephen,>In chatting to some JWs recently, we discussed Rev 1:18 where the First and>the Last states that “I was dead” (NIV). In the New World “translation”,>“became dead”. Looking in my GNT it is written> >EGENOMHN NEKROS> >The usage of GINOMAI struck me as curious and the notion of “becoming dead”.>Would a use of EIMI NEKROS have worked too? Should we understand “becoming>dead” as being in the state of deadness? I’d be interested to read any>thoughts regarding this, regarding the use of GINOMAI as an auxiliary verb>etc. Also, if you have any references that discuss these types of questions,>I’d be pleased to hear from youHH: GINOMAI can be translated as “was.” The second main meaning for GINOMAI according to BAGD lexicon is “as a substitute for the forms of EIMI.” EIMI is the standard Greek verb for representing the “to be” idea. In English do we really talk like the New World translation? At least it sounds odd in my ears: “I became dead.” It seems more natural to say, “I died” or “I was dead.” (Of course, how often does anyone talk that way at all?) The verse (Rev. 1:18) seems to describe a stative condition. Jesus was in one state, that of deadness, and he is now is in another, aliveness. In a technical sense the New World translation is perfectly possible. The question is what part of GINOMAI’s scope of meaning the writer of Revelation had in mind. Since he uses EIMI in the same verse with “alive,” the New World Translation may have been tryng to preserve the difference. Yet the difference may have been so subtle in Greek that their attempt in English is too much.Yours,Harold Holmyard
[] Revelation 1:18[] Revelation 1:18
[] Revelation 1:18 Awohili at aol.com Awohili at aol.com
Tue Jul 12 17:00:58 EDT 2005
[] Revelation 1:18 [] Revelation 1:18 The New World “translation,” as you put it, is a literal translation from the Greek. The way it renders Revelation 1:18 is not different from other “translations,” to use your expression. For example, Revelation 1:18 in the Analytical-Literal Translation by Gary F. Zeolla (2001) reads: “And I became dead. And Look! I am living into the ages of the ages.” The New Testament Transline by Michael Magill (2002) renders it: “And I became dead and behold — I am living forever and ever.” Literal “translations,” as you put it, do just that — they translate literally. Solomon In a message dated 07/12/2005 12:08:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, stbaldwi at hotmail.com writes:In chatting to some JWs recently, we discussed Rev 1:18 where the First and the Last states that “I was dead” (NIV). In the New World “translation”, “became dead”. Looking in my GNT it is writtenEGENOMHN NEKROSThe usage of GINOMAI struck me as curious and the notion of “becoming dead”. Would a use of EIMI NEKROS have worked too? Should we understand “becoming dead” as being in the state of deadness? I’d be interested to read any thoughts regarding this, regarding the use of GINOMAI as an auxiliary verb etc. Also, if you have any references that discuss these types of questions, I’d be pleased to hear from you.
[] Revelation 1:18[] Revelation 1:18
[] Revelation 1:18 Awohili at aol.com Awohili at aol.com
Tue Jul 12 17:10:02 EDT 2005
[] Revelation 1:18 [] Rev. 1:18 My apologies for not signing my full name. The problem is that I usually post where I am well-known and don’t have to. Solomon Landers In a message dated 07/12/2005 2:05:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, Awohili at aol.com writes:Literal “translations,” as you put it, do just that — they translate literally.Solomon
[] Revelation 1:18[] Rev. 1:18
[] Rev. 1:18 Carlton Winbery winberycl at earthlink.net
Tue Jul 12 17:58:59 EDT 2005
[] Revelation 1:18 [] Revelation 1:18 Let us talk about the text of Rev. 1:18 (GINOMAI/EIMI, ETC) without discussing any particular groups claims or the methods of translation of any group. This will lead us astray. If you have not yet done so, please read the FAQ for as to what is permitted and what is not. home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ThanksCarlton Winberyco-moderator– Carlton L. WinberyRetired Professor of ReligionLouisiana College318-448-6103winberycl at earthlink.netwinbery at lacollege.edu
[] Revelation 1:18[] Revelation 1:18
[] Revelation 1:18 malcolm robertson mjriii2003 at yahoo.com
Wed Jul 13 10:06:47 EDT 2005
[] Rev. 1:18 [] Traditional Greek grammar (was: Ephesians 5:5 “TOUXRISTOU KAI QEOU”) Dear Stephen, Welcome to and I can tell you many blessings lie in store for you in the Greek text. Happy mining. Now to your query. Please don’t let your mind be clouded by compartmentalizing Greek grammar and divorcing it from common sense. NEKROS is NEKROS. EGENOMHN may be translated by *became* but it also may be translated simply by *was*. If a person *becomes dead* they are actually dead. EIMI NEKROS would not work simply because the statement *I am dead* would betray a lie. HN NEKROS *I was dead* would however serve equally well and state the same thing. But there is a theological nuance here implied by the use of EGENOMHN that may explain better this semantic choice of John (cf.1:4f). List rules will not permit me to elaborate further. However, the context makes it plain that EGENOMHN NEKROS is in contrast with both KAI hO ZWN and IDOU ZWN EIMI. Hope this helps and again welcome aboard. Cordially in Christ, Malcolm Robertson__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] Rev. 1:18[] Traditional Greek grammar (was: Ephesians 5:5 “TOUXRISTOU KAI QEOU”)