Please see below John 3.9-14 for context.
Most translations I checked do not see a paragraph break after John 3.12. The abrupt change in subject seems too severe to me to join verse 13 to 12 as if we are to read verse 13 as the next sentence in this paragraph. What would be the justification for NOT seeing a full break at this 90 degree turn by John at the conclusion of verse 12? There is no continuation of previously developed material, right? Does anyone have a translation that does make a paragraph break after 3.12?
9απεκριθη νικοδημος και ειπεν αυτω πως δυναται ταυτα γενεσθαι 10απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτω συ ει ο διδασκαλος του ισραηλ και ταυτα ου γινωσκεις 11αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτι ο οιδαμεν λαλουμεν και ο εωρακαμεν μαρτυρουμεν και την μαρτυριαν ημων ου λαμβανετε 12ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε Full Break
13και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου 14και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
Eddie Mishoe
Hi Eddie,
There are several connections linking vv. 12-14 together in my view. Jesus makes the first statement contrasting earthly things with heavenly things in v. 12, the point being that Nicodemos can’t understand either of them. How is he supposed to? This is where v. 13 comes in, where Jesus is the only one who’s been there to be able to explain it. Verse 14 links back to a familiar OT picture, saying that Jesus will be lifted up in similar ways.
Take a look at the connectives in these clauses. Within reported speech, clauses are joined using asyndeton (i.e., no conjunction) unless there is some reason for doing so. If the relationship between the two is clear enough, no conjunction.
10απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτω συ ει ο διδασκαλος του ισραηλ και ταυτα ου γινωσκεις (ASYN) 11αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτι ο οιδαμεν λαλουμεν και ο εωρακαμεν μαρτυρουμεν και την μαρτυριαν ημων ου λαμβανετε (Previous 3 clauses added one to another by KAI, but the unit is linked to what follows by ASYN) 12ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε (End of Thought 1)
(Beginning of thought 2, added to the previous one with KAI) 13και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου
(Beginning of thought 3, added to the previous one with KAI) 14και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
This is not an argument that builds one layer upon another as in Paul or elsewhere in Jesus’ teachings, but three related statements that are added one to another. KAI can join words, phrases, clauses and paragraphs. I’d view the connections between 12 and 13 as the latter, joining the paragraph of 10-12 to 13 and then to 14.
Steven E. Runge, DLitt Scholar-in-Residence Logos Bible Software srunge@logos.com http://www.logos.com http://www.ntdiscourse.org
It seems to me that a full break would do violence to the text. In 3.12 we see a question regarding one’s ability to speak regarding one’s knowledge of τὰ ἐπουράνια in contrast to the τὰ ἐπίγεια with the acceptance of the proposition that one can only speak regarding those things of which one has knowledge. In v 13 it asserts that there is only one who has had experience of τὰ ἐπουράνια, viz the one who came down from heaven — ὁ υἱος τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, κτλ. Jesus is thereby claiming to be this son of man who has come down from heaven with a knowledge of heavenly matters concerning which he is therefore qualified to speak. A full break would therefore do violence to the argument.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:16:43 PM
Please see below John 3.9-14 for context.
Most translations I checked do not see a paragraph break after John 3.12. The abrupt change in subject seems too severe to me to join verse 13 to 12 as if we are to read verse 13 as the next sentence in this paragraph. What would be the justification for NOT seeing a full break at this 90 degree turn by John at the conclusion of verse 12? There is no continuation of previously developed material, right? Does anyone have a translation that does make a paragraph break after 3.12?
9απεκριθη νικοδημος και ειπεν αυτω πως δυναται ταυτα γενεσθαι 10απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτω συ ει ο διδασκαλος του ισραηλ και ταυτα ου γινωσκεις 11αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτι ο οιδαμεν λαλουμεν και ο εωρακαμεν μαρτυρουμεν και την μαρτυριαν ημων ου λαμβανετε 12ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε Full Break
13και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου 14και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
Eddie Mishoe
Without the connecting words at the beginning of v. 3 (Ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ), it would seem that there is really no connection between Nocodemus’ acollades in v. 2 and Jesus’ actual response (Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν … ἐὰν μή τις γενηθῇ ἀνωθεν …). The connection becomes obvious only because we know that Jesus did respond to Nicodemus in that manner, but certainly not because of any continuity of thought. In other words, here, too, one might say, there is a 90-degree turn. Yet we know that that’s how Jesus responded to Nicodemus.
In v.13 we may not have any connecting words (as we do in v. 3), but that does not necessarily call for a paragraph break. From a stylistic standpoint we might see v. 13 as the beginning of a new paragraph, but contextually we still see Jesus talking about heavenly matters and truths related to ἄνωθεν. I am not aware of any translation that shows a paragraph break here, though, in my opinion, a break would serve no purpose. Philemon Zachariou
________________________________ Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:56 PM
It seems to me that a full break would do violence to the text. In 3.12 we see a question regarding one’s ability to speak regarding one’s knowledge of τὰ ἐπουράνια in contrast to the τὰ ἐπίγεια with the acceptance of the proposition that one can only speak regarding those things of which one has knowledge. In v 13 it asserts that there is only one who has had experience of τὰ ἐπουράνια, viz the one who came down from heaven — ὁ υἱος τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, κτλ. Jesus is thereby claiming to be this son of man who has come down from heaven with a knowledge of heavenly matters concerning which he is therefore qualified to speak. A full break would therefore do violence to the argument.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:16:43 PM
Please see below John 3.9-14 for context.
Most translations I checked do not see a paragraph break after John 3.12. The abrupt change in subject seems too severe to me to join verse 13 to 12 as if we are to read verse 13 as the next sentence in this paragraph. What would be the justification for NOT seeing a full break at this 90 degree turn by John at the conclusion of verse 12? There is no continuation of previously developed material, right? Does anyone have a translation that does make a paragraph break after 3.12?
9απεκριθη νικοδημος και ειπεν αυτω πως δυναται ταυτα γενεσθαι 10απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτω συ ει ο διδασκαλος του ισραηλ και ταυτα ου γινωσκεις 11αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτι ο οιδαμεν λαλουμεν και ο εωρακαμεν μαρτυρουμεν και την μαρτυριαν ημων ου λαμβανετε 12ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε Full Break
13και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου 14και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
Eddie Mishoe
Hi Eddie,
There are several connections linking vv. 12-14 together in my view. Jesus makes the first statement contrasting earthly things with heavenly things in v. 12, the point being that Nicodemos can’t understand either of them. How is he supposed to? This is where v. 13 comes in, where Jesus is the only one who’s been there to be able to explain it. Verse 14 links back to a familiar OT picture, saying that Jesus will be lifted up in similar ways.
Take a look at the connectives in these clauses. Within reported speech, clauses are joined using asyndeton (i.e., no conjunction) unless there is some reason for doing so. If the relationship between the two is clear enough, no conjunction.
10απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτω συ ει ο διδασκαλος του ισραηλ και ταυτα ου γινωσκεις (ASYN) 11αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτι ο οιδαμεν λαλουμεν και ο εωρακαμεν μαρτυρουμεν και την μαρτυριαν ημων ου λαμβανετε (Previous 3 clauses added one to another by KAI, but the unit is linked to what follows by ASYN) 12ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε (End of Thought 1)
(Beginning of thought 2, added to the previous one with KAI) 13και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου
(Beginning of thought 3, added to the previous one with KAI) 14και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
This is not an argument that builds one layer upon another as in Paul or elsewhere in Jesus’ teachings, but three related statements that are added one to another. KAI can join words, phrases, clauses and paragraphs. I’d view the connections between 12 and 13 as the latter, joining the paragraph of 10-12 to 13 and then to 14.
Steven E. Runge, DLitt Scholar-in-Residence Logos Bible Software srunge@logos.com http://www.logos.com http://www.ntdiscourse.org
It seems to me that a full break would do violence to the text. In 3.12 we see a question regarding one’s ability to speak regarding one’s knowledge of τὰ ἐπουράνια in contrast to the τὰ ἐπίγεια with the acceptance of the proposition that one can only speak regarding those things of which one has knowledge. In v 13 it asserts that there is only one who has had experience of τὰ ἐπουράνια, viz the one who came down from heaven — ὁ υἱος τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, κτλ. Jesus is thereby claiming to be this son of man who has come down from heaven with a knowledge of heavenly matters concerning which he is therefore qualified to speak. A full break would therefore do violence to the argument.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:16:43 PM
Please see below John 3.9-14 for context.
Most translations I checked do not see a paragraph break after John 3.12. The abrupt change in subject seems too severe to me to join verse 13 to 12 as if we are to read verse 13 as the next sentence in this paragraph. What would be the justification for NOT seeing a full break at this 90 degree turn by John at the conclusion of verse 12? There is no continuation of previously developed material, right? Does anyone have a translation that does make a paragraph break after 3.12?
9απεκριθη νικοδημος και ειπεν αυτω πως δυναται ταυτα γενεσθαι 10απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτω συ ει ο διδασκαλος του ισραηλ και ταυτα ου γινωσκεις 11αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτι ο οιδαμεν λαλουμεν και ο εωρακαμεν μαρτυρουμεν και την μαρτυριαν ημων ου λαμβανετε 12ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε Full Break
13και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου 14και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
Eddie Mishoe
Without the connecting words at the beginning of v. 3 (Ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ), it would seem that there is really no connection between Nocodemus’ acollades in v. 2 and Jesus’ actual response (Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν … ἐὰν μή τις γενηθῇ ἀνωθεν …). The connection becomes obvious only because we know that Jesus did respond to Nicodemus in that manner, but certainly not because of any continuity of thought. In other words, here, too, one might say, there is a 90-degree turn. Yet we know that that’s how Jesus responded to Nicodemus.
In v.13 we may not have any connecting words (as we do in v. 3), but that does not necessarily call for a paragraph break. From a stylistic standpoint we might see v. 13 as the beginning of a new paragraph, but contextually we still see Jesus talking about heavenly matters and truths related to ἄνωθεν. I am not aware of any translation that shows a paragraph break here, though, in my opinion, a break would serve no purpose. Philemon Zachariou
________________________________ Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:56 PM
It seems to me that a full break would do violence to the text. In 3.12 we see a question regarding one’s ability to speak regarding one’s knowledge of τὰ ἐπουράνια in contrast to the τὰ ἐπίγεια with the acceptance of the proposition that one can only speak regarding those things of which one has knowledge. In v 13 it asserts that there is only one who has had experience of τὰ ἐπουράνια, viz the one who came down from heaven — ὁ υἱος τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, κτλ. Jesus is thereby claiming to be this son of man who has come down from heaven with a knowledge of heavenly matters concerning which he is therefore qualified to speak. A full break would therefore do violence to the argument.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ Sent: Tue, May 24, 2011 9:16:43 PM
Please see below John 3.9-14 for context.
Most translations I checked do not see a paragraph break after John 3.12. The abrupt change in subject seems too severe to me to join verse 13 to 12 as if we are to read verse 13 as the next sentence in this paragraph. What would be the justification for NOT seeing a full break at this 90 degree turn by John at the conclusion of verse 12? There is no continuation of previously developed material, right? Does anyone have a translation that does make a paragraph break after 3.12?
9απεκριθη νικοδημος και ειπεν αυτω πως δυναται ταυτα γενεσθαι 10απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτω συ ει ο διδασκαλος του ισραηλ και ταυτα ου γινωσκεις 11αμην αμην λεγω σοι οτι ο οιδαμεν λαλουμεν και ο εωρακαμεν μαρτυρουμεν και την μαρτυριαν ημων ου λαμβανετε 12ει τα επιγεια ειπον υμιν και ου πιστευετε πως εαν ειπω υμιν τα επουρανια πιστευσετε Full Break
13και ουδεις αναβεβηκεν εις τον ουρανον ει μη ο εκ του ουρανου καταβας ο υιος του ανθρωπου 14και καθως μωυσης υψωσεν τον οφιν εν τη ερημω ουτως υψωθηναι δει τον υιον του ανθρωπου
Eddie Mishoe