[bible passage=”Romans 3:3″]
PISTIS vs PISTOS
I don’t believe there is a separate Greek word for “faithfulness” in the N.T.; at least I don’t see one.
That being said, it would seem to me that if Paul or any other N.T. author intended for an existing word like PISTIS or PISTOS to be used to mean faithfulness, he/they would have used PISTOS (faithful) instead of PISTIS (faith).
Would someone shed some light on this please?
Thanks, Ren Preston
You say you don’t think there is one, yet you give it yourself.
2 Timothy 2:11 (NA27) 11πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἰ γὰρ συναπεθάνομεν, καὶ συζήσομεν· PISTOS hO LOGOS: EI GAR SUNAPEQANOMEN, KAI SUZHSOMEN. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sat, December 18, 2010 9:36:14 AM
I don’t believe there is a separate Greek word for “faithfulness” in the N.T.; at least I don’t see one.
That being said, it would seem to me that if Paul or any other N.T. author intended for an existing word like PISTIS or PISTOS to be used to mean faithfulness, he/they would have used PISTOS (faithful) instead of PISTIS (faith).
Would someone shed some light on this please?
Thanks, Ren Preston
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
PISTOS is an adjective; it might and can mean “faithful” but not “faithfulness.” There’s nothing wrong with PISTIS as “faithfulness” — BDAG s.v. PISTIS: 1.a. the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitment
Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
—– Original Message —– Sent: 18. december 2010 19:36
Yes, PISTIS covers both the English “faith” and “faithfulness”.
You would find it helpful to look up in a dictionary and study the occurrences where PISTIS is used for “faithfulness”. While PISTEUW refers to the event of putting one’s trust in something or someone, the adjective PISTOS describes a person or thing as being trustworthy. But sometimes a Greek construction requires a noun to be used, and in that case, PISTIS has to do double duty as the noun corresponding to PISTEUW, i.e. “faith”, and as the noun corresponding to PISTOS, i.e. “trustworthiness, loyalty, committedness”.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Hi, Ren,
A good example of where PISTIS means not so much trust but faithfulness or loyalty is Chariton 5:1
τὴν Καλλιρόης πρὸς Χαιρέαν πίστιν…ἐν τῳ πρόσθεν λόγῳ δεδήλωται.
THN KALLIROHS PROS XAIREAN PISTIN…EN TW PROSQEN LOGWi DEDHLWTAI
“the loyalty of Calliroe towards Chaireas…has been shown in the preceding account.”
Up until this point, Calliroe has not really shown trust in Chareas, because she thinks he is dead, and at any rate she doubts his own character and fidelity throughout the book. But she is devoted to him, she tries to remain chaste to his memory, she persists in committedness. Faithfulness usually implies trust, but not always.
Now, whether Paul believes (e.g. Gal 2:16) that we are made righteous by trust IN Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) or by the faithfulness OF Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) depends on the further question of whether this is an objective or subjective genitive, and above all what King Context has to say about the matter. But lexigraphy gets you half way there.
Mark L Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; fredsmith1000@usa.com Sent: Sat, December 18, 2010 11:24:35 PM
Sent: 18. december 2010 19:36
Yes, PISTIS covers both the English “faith” and “faithfulness”.
You would find it helpful to look up in a dictionary and study the occurrences where PISTIS is used for “faithfulness”. While PISTEUW refers to the event of putting one’s trust in something or someone, the adjective PISTOS describes a person or thing as being trustworthy. But sometimes a Greek construction requires a noun to be used, and in that case, PISTIS has to do double duty as the noun corresponding to PISTEUW, i.e. “faith”, and as the noun corresponding to PISTOS, i.e. “trustworthiness, loyalty, committedness”.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Another example I think will demonstrate it nicely is Romans 3:3 –
ROMANS 3:3 TI GAR; EI HPISTHSAN TINES, MH hH APISTIA AUTWN THN PISTIN TOU QEOU KATARGHSEI; What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? (NASB) Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; fredsmith1000@usa.com Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 5:33:40 AM
Hi, Ren,
A good example of where PISTIS means not so much trust but faithfulness or loyalty is Chariton 5:1
τὴν Καλλιρόης πρὸς Χαιρέαν πίστιν…ἐν τῳ πρόσθεν λόγῳ δεδήλωται.
THN KALLIROHS PROS XAIREAN PISTIN…EN TW PROSQEN LOGWi DEDHLWTAI
“the loyalty of Calliroe towards Chaireas…has been shown in the preceding account.”
Up until this point, Calliroe has not really shown trust in Chareas, because she
thinks he is dead, and at any rate she doubts his own character and fidelity throughout the book. But she is devoted to him, she tries to remain chaste to his memory, she persists in committedness. Faithfulness usually implies trust, but not always.
Now, whether Paul believes (e.g. Gal 2:16) that we are made righteous by trust IN Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) or by the faithfulness OF Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) depends on the further question of whether this is an objective or subjective genitive, and above all what King Context has to say about the matter. But lexigraphy gets you half way there.
Mark L Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; fredsmith1000@usa.com Sent: Sat, December 18, 2010 11:24:35 PM
Sent: 18. december 2010 19:36
Yes, PISTIS covers both the English “faith” and “faithfulness”.
You would find it helpful to look up in a dictionary and study the occurrences where PISTIS is used for “faithfulness”. While PISTEUW refers to the event of putting one’s trust in something or someone, the adjective PISTOS describes a person or thing as being trustworthy. But sometimes a Greek construction requires a noun to be used, and in that case, PISTIS has to do double duty as the noun corresponding to PISTEUW, i.e. “faith”, and as the noun corresponding to PISTOS, i.e. “trustworthiness, loyalty, committedness”.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
You say you don’t think there is one, yet you give it yourself.
2 Timothy 2:11 (NA27) 11πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἰ γὰρ συναπεθάνομεν, καὶ συζήσομεν· PISTOS hO LOGOS: EI GAR SUNAPEQANOMEN, KAI SUZHSOMEN. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Sat, December 18, 2010 9:36:14 AM
I don’t believe there is a separate Greek word for “faithfulness” in the N.T.; at least I don’t see one.
That being said, it would seem to me that if Paul or any other N.T. author intended for an existing word like PISTIS or PISTOS to be used to mean faithfulness, he/they would have used PISTOS (faithful) instead of PISTIS (faith).
Would someone shed some light on this please?
Thanks, Ren Preston
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
PISTOS is an adjective; it might and can mean “faithful” but not “faithfulness.” There’s nothing wrong with PISTIS as “faithfulness” — BDAG s.v. PISTIS: 1.a. the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitment
Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
—– Original Message —– Sent: 18. december 2010 19:36
Yes, PISTIS covers both the English “faith” and “faithfulness”.
You would find it helpful to look up in a dictionary and study the occurrences where PISTIS is used for “faithfulness”. While PISTEUW refers to the event of putting one’s trust in something or someone, the adjective PISTOS describes a person or thing as being trustworthy. But sometimes a Greek construction requires a noun to be used, and in that case, PISTIS has to do double duty as the noun corresponding to PISTEUW, i.e. “faith”, and as the noun corresponding to PISTOS, i.e. “trustworthiness, loyalty, committedness”.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Hi, Ren,
A good example of where PISTIS means not so much trust but faithfulness or loyalty is Chariton 5:1
τὴν Καλλιρόης πρὸς Χαιρέαν πίστιν…ἐν τῳ πρόσθεν λόγῳ δεδήλωται.
THN KALLIROHS PROS XAIREAN PISTIN…EN TW PROSQEN LOGWi DEDHLWTAI
“the loyalty of Calliroe towards Chaireas…has been shown in the preceding account.”
Up until this point, Calliroe has not really shown trust in Chareas, because she thinks he is dead, and at any rate she doubts his own character and fidelity throughout the book. But she is devoted to him, she tries to remain chaste to his memory, she persists in committedness. Faithfulness usually implies trust, but not always.
Now, whether Paul believes (e.g. Gal 2:16) that we are made righteous by trust IN Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) or by the faithfulness OF Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) depends on the further question of whether this is an objective or subjective genitive, and above all what King Context has to say about the matter. But lexigraphy gets you half way there.
Mark L Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; fredsmith1000@usa.com Sent: Sat, December 18, 2010 11:24:35 PM
Sent: 18. december 2010 19:36
Yes, PISTIS covers both the English “faith” and “faithfulness”.
You would find it helpful to look up in a dictionary and study the occurrences where PISTIS is used for “faithfulness”. While PISTEUW refers to the event of putting one’s trust in something or someone, the adjective PISTOS describes a person or thing as being trustworthy. But sometimes a Greek construction requires a noun to be used, and in that case, PISTIS has to do double duty as the noun corresponding to PISTEUW, i.e. “faith”, and as the noun corresponding to PISTOS, i.e. “trustworthiness, loyalty, committedness”.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Another example I think will demonstrate it nicely is Romans 3:3 –
ROMANS 3:3 TI GAR; EI HPISTHSAN TINES, MH hH APISTIA AUTWN THN PISTIN TOU QEOU KATARGHSEI; What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? (NASB) Blue Harris
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; fredsmith1000@usa.com Sent: Sun, December 19, 2010 5:33:40 AM
Hi, Ren,
A good example of where PISTIS means not so much trust but faithfulness or loyalty is Chariton 5:1
τὴν Καλλιρόης πρὸς Χαιρέαν πίστιν…ἐν τῳ πρόσθεν λόγῳ δεδήλωται.
THN KALLIROHS PROS XAIREAN PISTIN…EN TW PROSQEN LOGWi DEDHLWTAI
“the loyalty of Calliroe towards Chaireas…has been shown in the preceding account.”
Up until this point, Calliroe has not really shown trust in Chareas, because she
thinks he is dead, and at any rate she doubts his own character and fidelity throughout the book. But she is devoted to him, she tries to remain chaste to his memory, she persists in committedness. Faithfulness usually implies trust, but not always.
Now, whether Paul believes (e.g. Gal 2:16) that we are made righteous by trust IN Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) or by the faithfulness OF Christ (EK PISTEWS CRISTOU) depends on the further question of whether this is an objective or subjective genitive, and above all what King Context has to say about the matter. But lexigraphy gets you half way there.
Mark L Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org; fredsmith1000@usa.com Sent: Sat, December 18, 2010 11:24:35 PM
Sent: 18. december 2010 19:36
Yes, PISTIS covers both the English “faith” and “faithfulness”.
You would find it helpful to look up in a dictionary and study the occurrences where PISTIS is used for “faithfulness”. While PISTEUW refers to the event of putting one’s trust in something or someone, the adjective PISTOS describes a person or thing as being trustworthy. But sometimes a Greek construction requires a noun to be used, and in that case, PISTIS has to do double duty as the noun corresponding to PISTEUW, i.e. “faith”, and as the noun corresponding to PISTOS, i.e. “trustworthiness, loyalty, committedness”.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek