Just so. And this answers the question posed at the beginning of the chapter:Wes Wood wrote: ↑March 24th, 2017, 1:00 amI think an honest answer is that the translations are ambiguous because the Greek is ambiguous. It seems to me that part of the confusion is the result of the infinitive not indicating time. If I understand this concept correctly, that means that the context and/or the main verb are used to determine the timing of the infinitive. I suppose that the translation "we shall/will be saved" views salvation as a future event, "we are saved" or "have been saved" as a past event or past event with present results, and that the rendering "to be saved," in my mind at least, allows for either possibility and captures the uncertainty of the Greek. In other words, the rendering depends to a large degree on one's thoughts about what salvation is and when/how it is obtained.
Acts.15.1 wrote:Καί τινες κατελθόντες ἀπὸ τῆς Ἰουδαίας ἐδίδασκον τοὺς ἀδελφοὺς ὅτι Ἐὰν μὴ περιτμηθῆτε τῷ ἔθει τῷ Μωϋσέως, οὐ δύνασθε σωθῆναι.
It's not telling us when this salvation occurs, it's telling us that it can occur by the grace of Jesus Christ, without circumcision, for both Jews and Greeks. Because it is not talking about when, using an infinitive, which does not fix the time, works well here. And it nicely echoes 15:1.Acts.15.11 wrote:ἀλλὰ διὰ τῆς χάριτος τοῦ Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ πιστεύομεν σωθῆναι καθ’ ὃν τρόπον κἀκεῖνοι.
Exactly. Statistics: Posted by Jonathan Robie — March 24th, 2017, 9:47 amEeli Kaikkonen wrote: ↑March 24th, 2017, 4:44 amMy subjective opinion is that infinitive, not a finite form, is used because the speaker doesn't want to refer to any specific time, just the event or fact of saving or being saved. He doesn't mean that they have already been saved or will later be saved, just that being saved in general is or happens through grace.
My subjective opinion is that infinitive, not a finite form, is used because the speaker doesn't want to refer to any specific time, just the event or fact of saving or being saved. He doesn't mean that they have already been saved or will later be saved, just that being saved in general is or happens through grace. Statistics: Posted by Eeli Kaikkonen — March 24th, 2017, 4:44 am
My subjective opinion is that infinitive, not a finite form, is used because the speaker doesn't want to refer to any specific time, just the event or fact of saving or being saved. He doesn't mean that they have already been saved or will later be saved, just that being saved in general is or happens through grace. Statistics: Posted by Eeli Kaikkonen — March 24th, 2017, 4:44 am
The passage in question:romanjaro wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2017, 5:53 pmDear friends I'm interested in the correct rendering of Acts 15:11. In the translations the collocation PISTEUOMEN SWQHNAI (πιστεύομεν σωθῆναι) is given by: "we shall/will be saved", "to be saved", "we are saved", "have been saved". Why the translations are so ambiguous? (I mean tenses). Why translators freely interpret this passage? Is this construction (aorist infinitive passive) so difficult? Is it related to ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo) construction? I've looked at the old list, but there was no definitive and clear conclusion. Could you explain me how correct understand and translate this utterance? Jarek Romanowski
I will give you my two drachma. Do with them what you will. "Why are the translations so ambiguous?" I think an honest answer is that the translations are ambiguous because the Greek is ambiguous. It seems to me that part of the confusion is the result of the infinitive not indicating time. If I understand this concept correctly, that means that the context and/or the main verb are used to determine the timing of the infinitive. I suppose that the translation "we shall/will be saved" views salvation as a future event, "we are saved" or "have been saved" as a past event or past event with present results, and that the rendering "to be saved," in my mind at least, allows for either possibility and captures the uncertainty of the Greek. In other words, the rendering depends to a large degree on one's thoughts about what salvation is and when/how it is obtained. Statistics: Posted by Wes Wood — March 24th, 2017, 1:00 amActs 15:11 ἀλλὰ διὰ τῆς χάριτος τοῦ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ πιστεύομεν σωθῆναι καθ᾿ ὃν τρόπον κἀκεῖνοι.
Dear friends I'm interested in the correct rendering of Acts 15:11. In the translations the collocation PISTEUOMEN SWQHNAI (πιστεύομεν σωθῆναι) is given by: "we shall/will be saved", "to be saved", "we are saved", "have been saved". Why the translations are so ambiguous? (I mean tenses). Why translators freely interpret this passage? Is this construction (aorist infinitive passive) so difficult? Is it related to ACI (accusativus cum infinitivo) construction? I've looked at the old list, but there was no definitive and clear conclusion. Could you explain me how correct understand and translate this utterance? Jarek Romanowski Statistics: Posted by romanjaro — March 23rd, 2017, 5:53 pm