[bible passage=”Hebrews 6:1″]
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list @lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
George,
You’re not convinced that it really makes any difference; Obviously, neither are most Bible translators. But somehow I’m not at all comfortable with the idea that EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS means no more than EIMI IOUDAIOS. And his audience could see that he was a male; it’s not that he was seeking to convey that as simply obvious information. ANER isn’t particularly the word for ‘male’ anyway. Words have meaning, or they wouldn’t be used. The task of the translator is to somehow extract that meaning and convey it in words used by a different language. I don’t see that happening, and I just wonder if there’s any justification for that elsewhere in the Greek literature.
I would add that ANER is often used in Acts as some sort of intensifier, and rarely conveyed in translation. It would appear that Luke knew something about Hebrew-influenced Greek that we don’t.
Daniel Buck
________________________________ Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 7:45:02 PM
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
________________________________ From: Daniel Buck Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
②equiv. to Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. s.v. ἁνήρ. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 6:59:03 AM
George,
You’re not convinced that it really makes any difference; Obviously, neither are
most Bible translators. But somehow I’m not at all comfortable with the idea that EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS means no more than EIMI IOUDAIOS. And his audience could see that he was a male; it’s not that he was seeking to convey that as simply obvious information. ANER isn’t particularly the word for ‘male’ anyway. Words have meaning, or they wouldn’t be used. The task of the translator is to somehow extract that meaning and convey it in words used by a different language. I don’t see that happening, and I just wonder if there’s any justification for that elsewhere in the Greek literature.
I would add that ANER is often used in Acts as some sort of intensifier, and rarely conveyed in translation. It would appear that Luke knew something about Hebrew-influenced Greek that we don’t.
Daniel Buck
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 7:45:02 PM
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek τὶςsomeone, a person(Theognis 1, 199 Diehl2; X., Cyr. 2, 2, 22; Sir 27:7) Lk 9:38; 19:2; J 1:30; Ro 4:8 (Ps 32:2). Pl. some people (1 Macc 12:1; 13:34; Just., D. 108, 2 al.) Lk 5:18; Ac 6:11. ἀνήρ τιςLk 8:27; Ac 10:1. ἀνὴρ ὅςLat. is qui (like אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר; cp. 1 Macc 7:7; PsSol 6:1; 10:1 and as early as Pind., P. 9, 87 ἀνήρ τις, ὸ̔ς…); Js 1:12. οἱ κατʼ ἄνδρα(Dio Chrys. 15 [32], 6; cp. κατʼ ἄνδρα καὶ οἶκονPsSol 9:5) man for man, individually IEph 4:2 (of presbyters, but s. JKleist, note ad loc., rank and file); 20:2; ITr 13:2; ISm 5:1; 12:2; IPol 1:3.
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Let’s try that one more time. It seems that I’m having problems with copying and pasting. ②equiv. to Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of
the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. s.v. ἁνήρ. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 7:12:39 AM
②equiv. to Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of
the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. s.v. ἁνήρ. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 6:59:03 AM
George,
You’re not convinced that it really makes any difference; Obviously, neither are
most Bible translators. But somehow I’m not at all comfortable with the idea that EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS means no more than EIMI IOUDAIOS. And his audience could see that he was a male; it’s not that he was seeking to convey that as simply obvious information. ANER isn’t particularly the word for ‘male’ anyway. Words have meaning, or they wouldn’t be used. The task of the translator is to somehow extract that meaning and convey it in words used by a different language. I don’t see that happening, and I just wonder if there’s any justification for that elsewhere in the Greek literature.
I would add that ANER is often used in Acts as some sort of intensifier, and rarely conveyed in translation. It would appear that Luke knew something about Hebrew-influenced Greek that we don’t.
Daniel Buck
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 7:45:02 PM
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek τὶςsomeone, a person(Theognis 1, 199 Diehl2; X., Cyr. 2, 2, 22; Sir 27:7) Lk 9:38; 19:2; J 1:30; Ro 4:8 (Ps 32:2). Pl. some people (1 Macc 12:1; 13:34; Just., D. 108, 2 al.) Lk 5:18; Ac 6:11. ἀνήρ τιςLk 8:27; Ac 10:1. ἀνὴρ ὅςLat. is
qui (like אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר; cp. 1 Macc 7:7; PsSol 6:1; 10:1 and as early as Pind., P. 9, 87 ἀνήρ τις, ὸ̔ς…); Js 1:12. οἱ κατʼ ἄνδρα(Dio Chrys. 15 [32], 6; cp. κατʼ
ἄνδρα καὶ οἶκονPsSol 9:5) man for man, individually IEph 4:2 (of presbyters, but
s. JKleist, note ad loc., rank and file); 20:2; ITr 13:2; ISm 5:1; 12:2; IPol 1:3.
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek τὶς TIS someone, a person(Theognis 1, 199 Diehl2; X., Cyr. 2, 2, 22; Sir 27:7) Lk 9:38; 19:2; J 1:30; Ro 4:8 (Ps 32:2). Pl. some people (1 Macc 12:1; 13:34; Just., D. 108, 2 al.) Lk 5:18; Ac 6:11. ἀνήρ τις ANHR TIS Lk 8:27; Ac 10:1. ἀνὴρ ὅς ANHR hOS Lat. is qui (like אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר; )iY$ )$eR cp. 1 Macc 7:7; PsSol 6:1; 10:1 and as early as Pind., P. 9, 87 ἀνήρ τις, ὸ̔ς… ANHR TIS, hOS); Js 1:12. οἱ κατʼ ἄνδρα hOI KAT’ ANDRA (Dio Chrys. 15 [32], 6; cp. κατʼ ἄνδρα καὶ οἶκον KAT’ ANDRA KAI OIKON PsSol 9:5) man for man, individually IEph 4:2 (of presbyters, but s. JKleist, note ad loc., rank and file); 20:2; ITr 13:2; ISm 5:1; 12:2; IPol 1:3.
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
—– Original Message —– Sent: 24. november 2010 02:56
I cannot figure out why you think ANHR intensifies EGW EIMI. It is true that “I” is somewhat stressed, but that is because he starts his defense, so the topic of his defense is himself.
IOUDAIOS is an adjective – Jewish – rather than a noun – Jew. You can have a Jewish country (CWRA), a Jewish land (GH), a Jewish man (ANHR, Acts 10:28, 13:6), a Jewish woman (Act 16:1), a Jewish chief priest (Acts 19:14), a Jewish ANQRWPOS (Acts 21:39). Sometimes the adjective is used substantively, but it is still an adjective. Luke prefers to have a noun with the adjective, and some of these may be influenced by a Semitic expression. Paul was speaking Hebrew here (ish yehudi).
You could translate it by “I am a Jewish man” as opposed to an Egyptian man or a Greek man, but it is more natural in English just to say “I am a Jew”. And if there was focus on his Jewishness, the text should have been something like EGW EIMI IOUDAIOS (ANHR). If contrastive, ANHR would probably not be present.
Compare also Acts 21:39 Ἐγὼ ἄνθρωπος μέν εἰμι Ἰουδαῖος EGW ANQRWPOS MEN EIMI IOUDAIOS
At least KJV does not here say: “I am indeed a person”.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
George,
You’re not convinced that it really makes any difference; Obviously, neither are most Bible translators. But somehow I’m not at all comfortable with the idea that EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS means no more than EIMI IOUDAIOS. And his audience could see that he was a male; it’s not that he was seeking to convey that as simply obvious information. ANER isn’t particularly the word for ‘male’ anyway. Words have meaning, or they wouldn’t be used. The task of the translator is to somehow extract that meaning and convey it in words used by a different language. I don’t see that happening, and I just wonder if there’s any justification for that elsewhere in the Greek literature.
I would add that ANER is often used in Acts as some sort of intensifier, and rarely conveyed in translation. It would appear that Luke knew something about Hebrew-influenced Greek that we don’t.
Daniel Buck
________________________________ Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 7:45:02 PM
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
________________________________ From: Daniel Buck Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
②equiv. to Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. s.v. ἁνήρ. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 6:59:03 AM
George,
You’re not convinced that it really makes any difference; Obviously, neither are
most Bible translators. But somehow I’m not at all comfortable with the idea that EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS means no more than EIMI IOUDAIOS. And his audience could see that he was a male; it’s not that he was seeking to convey that as simply obvious information. ANER isn’t particularly the word for ‘male’ anyway. Words have meaning, or they wouldn’t be used. The task of the translator is to somehow extract that meaning and convey it in words used by a different language. I don’t see that happening, and I just wonder if there’s any justification for that elsewhere in the Greek literature.
I would add that ANER is often used in Acts as some sort of intensifier, and rarely conveyed in translation. It would appear that Luke knew something about Hebrew-influenced Greek that we don’t.
Daniel Buck
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 7:45:02 PM
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek τὶςsomeone, a person(Theognis 1, 199 Diehl2; X., Cyr. 2, 2, 22; Sir 27:7) Lk 9:38; 19:2; J 1:30; Ro 4:8 (Ps 32:2). Pl. some people (1 Macc 12:1; 13:34; Just., D. 108, 2 al.) Lk 5:18; Ac 6:11. ἀνήρ τιςLk 8:27; Ac 10:1. ἀνὴρ ὅςLat. is qui (like אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר; cp. 1 Macc 7:7; PsSol 6:1; 10:1 and as early as Pind., P. 9, 87 ἀνήρ τις, ὸ̔ς…); Js 1:12. οἱ κατʼ ἄνδρα(Dio Chrys. 15 [32], 6; cp. κατʼ ἄνδρα καὶ οἶκονPsSol 9:5) man for man, individually IEph 4:2 (of presbyters, but s. JKleist, note ad loc., rank and file); 20:2; ITr 13:2; ISm 5:1; 12:2; IPol 1:3.
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Let’s try that one more time. It seems that I’m having problems with copying and pasting. ②equiv. to Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of
the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. s.v. ἁνήρ. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 7:12:39 AM
②equiv. to Arndt, William, Frederick W. Danker and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of
the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. s.v. ἁνήρ. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.
george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 6:59:03 AM
George,
You’re not convinced that it really makes any difference; Obviously, neither are
most Bible translators. But somehow I’m not at all comfortable with the idea that EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS means no more than EIMI IOUDAIOS. And his audience could see that he was a male; it’s not that he was seeking to convey that as simply obvious information. ANER isn’t particularly the word for ‘male’ anyway. Words have meaning, or they wouldn’t be used. The task of the translator is to somehow extract that meaning and convey it in words used by a different language. I don’t see that happening, and I just wonder if there’s any justification for that elsewhere in the Greek literature.
I would add that ANER is often used in Acts as some sort of intensifier, and rarely conveyed in translation. It would appear that Luke knew something about Hebrew-influenced Greek that we don’t.
Daniel Buck
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 7:45:02 PM
I suppose the way you translate it would depend upon how insistent you are regarding translating a passage in a formally equivalent manner. You could translate it as “I am a male Jew.” I’m not convinced that it really makes any difference. george gfsomsel
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 4:56:22 PM
I’ve see EGW EIMI carrying the following different meanings in English: – It is I – – I am he – – I am –
This last dissipates the intensity of the Greek, but is understandable in a popular language translation. What I’m trying to figure out, though, is just what Paul was trying ot convey with ANHR in EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS. Some of the more expanded or literal translations render it “I am indeed a Jew” but no modern translation seems to find a way of independently expressing the intensity
behind the word ANHR–they all treat the word as if it were not even there. Even Shakespeare had Shylock state simply “I am a Jew” (as most English translations of Acts 22:3) when the English Bible of his day used a full nine English words to translate the four Greek ones.
Are there other examples in Greek literature where ANHR is used to further intensify EGW EIMI? Any ideas on how to convey that into English–other than literally, of course?
Daniel Buck
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek τὶςsomeone, a person(Theognis 1, 199 Diehl2; X., Cyr. 2, 2, 22; Sir 27:7) Lk 9:38; 19:2; J 1:30; Ro 4:8 (Ps 32:2). Pl. some people (1 Macc 12:1; 13:34; Just., D. 108, 2 al.) Lk 5:18; Ac 6:11. ἀνήρ τιςLk 8:27; Ac 10:1. ἀνὴρ ὅςLat. is
qui (like אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר; cp. 1 Macc 7:7; PsSol 6:1; 10:1 and as early as Pind., P. 9, 87 ἀνήρ τις, ὸ̔ς…); Js 1:12. οἱ κατʼ ἄνδρα(Dio Chrys. 15 [32], 6; cp. κατʼ
ἄνδρα καὶ οἶκονPsSol 9:5) man for man, individually IEph 4:2 (of presbyters, but
s. JKleist, note ad loc., rank and file); 20:2; ITr 13:2; ISm 5:1; 12:2; IPol 1:3.
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek τὶς TIS someone, a person(Theognis 1, 199 Diehl2; X., Cyr. 2, 2, 22; Sir 27:7) Lk 9:38; 19:2; J 1:30; Ro 4:8 (Ps 32:2). Pl. some people (1 Macc 12:1; 13:34; Just., D. 108, 2 al.) Lk 5:18; Ac 6:11. ἀνήρ τις ANHR TIS Lk 8:27; Ac 10:1. ἀνὴρ ὅς ANHR hOS Lat. is qui (like אִישׁ אֲשֶׁר; )iY$ )$eR cp. 1 Macc 7:7; PsSol 6:1; 10:1 and as early as Pind., P. 9, 87 ἀνήρ τις, ὸ̔ς… ANHR TIS, hOS); Js 1:12. οἱ κατʼ ἄνδρα hOI KAT’ ANDRA (Dio Chrys. 15 [32], 6; cp. κατʼ ἄνδρα καὶ οἶκον KAT’ ANDRA KAI OIKON PsSol 9:5) man for man, individually IEph 4:2 (of presbyters, but s. JKleist, note ad loc., rank and file); 20:2; ITr 13:2; ISm 5:1; 12:2; IPol 1:3.
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—– Original Message —– Sent: 24. november 2010 02:56
I cannot figure out why you think ANHR intensifies EGW EIMI. It is true that “I” is somewhat stressed, but that is because he starts his defense, so the topic of his defense is himself.
IOUDAIOS is an adjective – Jewish – rather than a noun – Jew. You can have a Jewish country (CWRA), a Jewish land (GH), a Jewish man (ANHR, Acts 10:28, 13:6), a Jewish woman (Act 16:1), a Jewish chief priest (Acts 19:14), a Jewish ANQRWPOS (Acts 21:39). Sometimes the adjective is used substantively, but it is still an adjective. Luke prefers to have a noun with the adjective, and some of these may be influenced by a Semitic expression. Paul was speaking Hebrew here (ish yehudi).
You could translate it by “I am a Jewish man” as opposed to an Egyptian man or a Greek man, but it is more natural in English just to say “I am a Jew”. And if there was focus on his Jewishness, the text should have been something like EGW EIMI IOUDAIOS (ANHR). If contrastive, ANHR would probably not be present.
Compare also Acts 21:39 Ἐγὼ ἄνθρωπος μέν εἰμι Ἰουδαῖος EGW ANQRWPOS MEN EIMI IOUDAIOS
At least KJV does not here say: “I am indeed a person”.
Iver Larsen
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