Gal. 4:19 Thomas Biddy web3943 at charweb.org
Mon Jun 29 23:28:47 EDT 1998
1 Cor 14:34-35 KJV on “which” 5605. odino, o-dee’-no; from G5604; to experience the pains of parturition (lit. or fig.):–travail in (birth).(Gal 4:19 KJV) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,Does this refer to gestation – the nine months a baby is in it’s mother’s womb?How does it relate to5040. teknion, tek-nee’-on; dimin. of G5043; an infant, i.e. (plur. fig.) darlings (Christian converts):–little children.Is he saying something like – My infants, I have to incubate you again? Best,Thomas end
1 Cor 14:34-35KJV on “which”
Gal. 4:19 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Jun 30 07:02:40 EDT 1998
Church Polity and 1 Tim 2:12 Josephus Antiquities 3.1.173 At 11:28 PM -0400 6/29/98, Thomas Biddy wrote:>5605. odino, o-dee’-no; from G5604; to experience the pains of>parturition (lit. or fig.):–travail in (birth).> >(Gal 4:19 KJV) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again>until Christ be formed in you,> >Does this refer to gestation – the nine months a baby is in it’s mother’s>womb?> >How does it relate to>5040. teknion, tek-nee’-on; dimin. of G5043; an infant, i.e. (plur. fig.)>darlings (Christian converts):–little children.> >Is he saying something like – My infants, I have to incubate you again?Sometimes a direct citation from the KJV brings out just how archaic theEnglish really is in it. Nevertheless it is a clear and correct translationof the Greek, which is what I think ought more properly to be cited herethan a version.There are two significant antecedents here: (1) the Jewish eschatologicalusage of a woman’s labor in childbirth as an image of the coming-into-beingof a new world-age (cf. Rom 8:22, John 16:20-21, Mk 13:8 par, and I thinkit would be easy to multiply examples in Jewish and Christian apocalypticliterature); (2) the characteristic explanation of his educational practiceby Socrates that he was akin to a midwife, bringing to birth authenticideas that were gestating in the minds of his young disciples, from whichmetaphor has originated the education concept of “maieutic” from the GreekMAIEUTIKH. I’m inclined to think that it is this Socratic usage, probablyby Paul’s era a matter of cultural common goods rather than somethingthought of as Socratic, that is more in play in Paul’s usage in Gal 4:19.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Church Polity and 1 Tim 2:12Josephus Antiquities 3.1.173
Gal. 4:19 Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Tue Jun 30 14:07:03 EDT 1998
1 Tim 2:12 Gal. 4:19 On Mon 29 Jun 98 (23:28:47), web3943 at charweb.org wrote:> (Gal 4:19 KJV) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again > until Christ be formed in you,> > Does this refer to gestation – the nine months a baby is in it’s> mother’s womb? No; it’s a metaphor; compare Nicodemus’ misunderstanding of Jesus saying he must be born again. He did NOT mean enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born (John 3:4). Paul is labouring, travailing (as a woman in labour) to bring his converts whom he has “begotten” in Christ to “new birth”, not the natural birth as misunderstood by Nicodemus. Paul is afraid that his “foolish bewitched Galatian converts” have relapsed into Judaism, and he will have to go through another period of “labour” to restore them to their “new born (GENNHQHNAI ANWQEN)” status. IMHO, that is. Ben– Revd Ben Crick, BA CF <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm
1 Tim 2:12Gal. 4:19
Gal. 4:19 Thomas Biddy web3943 at charweb.org
Tue Jun 30 15:08:56 EDT 1998
Gal. 4:19 Fw: Concepts and Words Dear Ben,Yes, I know it is a metaphor. I was wondering about the ‘femaleness’ of the terms Paul uses as compared with ‘father’ in (1 Cor 4:15 KJV) For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.That is, I am trying to see that Paul uses male and female to illustrate his relationship (instructor).If you have any additional verses that illustrate this, I’d love to see them and to understand the Greek terms that he used.Very Best,ThomasPS – no one liked my cut and paste greek but if there is an Internet source that I could use, I would. Or I could continue with what I was using. Someone said it worked fine with Win95.On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Ben Crick wrote:> On Mon 29 Jun 98 (23:28:47), web3943 at charweb.org wrote:> > (Gal 4:19 KJV) My little children, of whom I travail in birth again > > until Christ be formed in you,> > > > Does this refer to gestation – the nine months a baby is in it’s> > mother’s womb?> > No; it’s a metaphor; compare Nicodemus’ misunderstanding of Jesus saying> he must be born again. He did NOT mean enter a second time into his> mother’s womb and be born (John 3:4).> > Paul is labouring, travailing (as a woman in labour) to bring his converts> whom he has “begotten” in Christ to “new birth”, not the natural birth as> misunderstood by Nicodemus. Paul is afraid that his “foolish bewitched> Galatian converts” have relapsed into Judaism, and he will have to go> through another period of “labour” to restore them to their “new born> (GENNHQHNAI ANWQEN)” status.> > IMHO, that is.> Ben> — > Revd Ben Crick, BA CF> <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk>> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK)> http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm> > > > > —> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> To post a message to the list, mailto: at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To subscribe, mailto:subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To unsubscribe, mailto:unsubscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu?subject=web3943 at charweb.org> end
Gal. 4:19Fw: Concepts and Words
1 Cor 4:15 (Was: Gal. 4:19) Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Wed Jul 1 23:18:01 EDT 1998
An odd twist or an ingenious translation? tameion: scatological? On Wed, 1 Jul 1998, Ben Crick wrote:> [snipped] Plato wrote: PAIDAGWGOS DOULOS WN,> AGWN DHPOU EIS DIDASKALOU (LUSIS, p 208). Dear Thomas, Pulling out my dusty tomes, I opened JB Lightfoot, /Saint Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians/, Macmillan, London, 1921, at Galatians 3:24 and came across the full citation from Plato. Here it is, FWIW: SE AUTON EWSIN ARCEIN SEAUTOU, H OUDE TOUTO EPITREPOUSI SOI; PWS GAR, EFH, EPITREPOUSIN; ALL’ ARCEI TIS SOU; hODE PAIDAGWGOS, EFH. MWN DOULOS WN; ALLA TI MHN; hHMETEROS GE, EFH. H DEINON, HN D’EGW, ELEUQERON ONTA hUPO DOULOU ARCESQAI· TI DE POIWN AU hOUTOS hO PAIDAGWGOS SOU ARCEI; AGWN DHPOU, EFH, EIS DIDASKALOU. MWN MH KAI hOUTOI SOU ARCOUSIN, hOI DIDASKALOI; PANTWS DHPOU. PAMPOLLOUS ARA SOI DESPOTAS KAI ARCONTAS hEKWN hO PATHR EFISTHSIN. (Plato, /Lysis/, p. 208c) (op cit pp 148f). It is worth reading the whole comment: a tad too long to retype here. Ben– Revd Ben Crick, BA CF <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm
An odd twist or an ingenious translation?tameion: scatological?