Hebrews 11:3

Re. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3 Paul φ. Evans evans at wilmington.net
Wed Jul 1 12:08:19 εδτ 1998

To Interpret or Not To Interpret, That is The question An odd twist or an ingenious translation? List,ι need some help!This is a mouthful for a under-achieving Greek student!πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ…ι cannot sort our the use of the infinitive καθρτισθαι. Is it forming a noun phrase with τουσ αιωνασ? In which case ι assume that τουσ αιωνασ is the subject of the infinitive. However, how is that to be understood in the larger context with what follows… particularly the infinitive γεγονεναι? α more practical question…How is the articular noun to be understood (τουσ αιωνασ)? Is this some sort of idiomatic expression for the universe?ι am totally confused. The Greek of Hebrews is harder than anything else in the ντ to me. (Yes ι know why, it is some of the best!)Rev. Paul φ. EvansPastorWilmington First Pentecostal Holiness ChurchMT. Olive, NCWeb-Page: http://wilmingtonfirst.churches.wilmington.orgE-mail: evans at wilmington.net————– next part ————–An ητμλ attachment was scrubbed…υρλ: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19980701/39647887/attachment.html

To Interpret or Not To Interpret, That is The questionAn odd twist or an ingenious translation?

Re. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3 Jonathan Robie jonathan at texcel.no
Thu Jul 2 00:59:24 εδτ 1998

tameion: scatological? To Interpret or Not To Interpret, That is The question-vastaus ι‘m not sure how much of this ι got right, but ι‘ll send what ι came upwith so the Big Greeks can mop up later.At 12:08 πμ 7/1/98 -0400, Paul φ. Evans wrote: > This is a mouthful for a under-achieving Greek student! > πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ hRHMATI θεουπιστει means ‘by faith’ (dative of means). πιστει νοουμεν means ‘by faithwe consider’, in the sense of thinking over a matter with care.καθρτισθαι is an infinitive, as you note. It is also perfect and passive -‘have been created by. hRHMATI is another dative of means – hRHMATI QEOUmeans ‘by the word of God’. καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ hRHMATI θεου means ‘theuniverse was established by the word of God’. ι think that τουσ αιωνασ ismeant in Louw & Nida sense 1.4, which is always plural, in contrast to theEnglish ‘universe’:”Louw & Nida 1.4 (always occurring in the plural): the universe, perhapswith some associated meaning of `eon’ or `age’ in the sense of thetransitory nature of the universe (but this is doubtful in the contexts of#Hebr 1:2 and 11.3)”So don’t let the plural spook you, τουσ αιωνασ just means “the universe”,as you had already guessed.>ι cannot sort our the use of the infinitive καθρτισθαι. Is it forming anoun >phrase with τουσ αιωνασ? In which case ι assume that τουσ αιωνασ isthe subject >of the infinitive. Yes, this how ι see it as well, as you can tell by my translation above.> However, how is that to be understood in the larger context > with what follows… particularly the infinitive γεγονεναι?The phrase containing γεγονεναι is: εισ το μη εκ φαινομενων το βλεπομενονγεγονεναι. The construction εισ το + Verb.Infinitive is the reason thatGEGONENAI comes out infinitive. In this case it expresses result. τοβλεπομενον means ‘that which is seen’. The phrase ‘εκ φαινομενων‘ is an interesting one – does it mean ‘out ofthat which is visible’, or ‘from appearances’? Is there an implication thatthe material world is less than solid? ι‘m guessing here with very littlebut a feeling in the gut. Can anybody comment on this phrase?At any rate, the entire phrase εισ το μη εκ φαινομενων το βλεπομενονγεγονεναι means “so that what is seen did not come from the visible” orperhaps “so that what is seen was not made from appearances”.Hope this helps!Jonathan___________________________________________________________________________Jonathan Robiejwrobie at mindspring.comLittle Greek Home Page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/koineLittle Greek 101: http://sunsite.unc.edu/koine/greek/lessons Home Page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/ Archives: http://sunsite.unc.edu//archives

tameion: scatological?To Interpret or Not To Interpret, That is The question-vastaus

Re. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3 Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Jul 2 07:59:15 εδτ 1998

Mt 28.19 – antecedent of αυτουσ odd twist or an ingenious translation? At 12:59 αμ -0400 7/02/98, Jonathan Robie wrote:>ι‘m not sure how much of this ι got right, but ι‘ll send what ι came up>with so the Big Greeks can mop up later.“Big Greeks,” harrumphhh! You’re thinking in terms of avoirdupois?Jonathan has gotten this right, ι‘d only like to clarify a couple points,chiefly that the distinctly ντ Grammars are not consistent in theirhandling of subject-accusative and infinitive (this is one of the few itemsthat ατ Robertson errs about, ι think personally): the rule is fairlysimple: when an infinitive is used in a subordinate clause, it’s subject isin the accusative υνλεσσ that subject is identical with the subject of theverb in the main clause upon which that infinitve ultimately depends. Notevery instance of this construction is “indirect discourse” or ορατιοοβλιθυα, but most of them actually are. One can always reformulate theaccusative and infinitive into an English noun clause beginning with “that…” So here: “By faith (πιστει) we intuit (νοουμεν) that (inf. +subject-acc. construction) the world (τουσ αιωνασ) stands created(καθρτισθαι, pf. pass. inf.) by the word of God (hRHMATI θεου).>At 12:08 πμ 7/1/98 -0400, Paul φ. Evans wrote:> >> This is a mouthful for a under-achieving Greek student!>> πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ hRHMATI θεου> >πιστει means ‘by faith’ (dative of means). πιστει νοουμεν means ‘by faith>we consider’, in the sense of thinking over a matter with care.> >καθρτισθαι is an infinitive, as you note. It is also perfect and passive –>‘have been created by. hRHMATI is another dative of means – hRHMATI θεου>means ‘by the word of God’. καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ hRHMATI θεου means ‘the>universe was established by the word of God’. ι think that τουσ αιωνασ is>meant in Louw & Nida sense 1.4, which is always plural, in contrast to the>English ‘universe’:> >“Louw & Nida 1.4 (always occurring in the plural): the universe, perhaps>with some associated meaning of `eon’ or `age’ in the sense of the>transitory nature of the universe (but this is doubtful in the contexts of>#Hebr 1:2 and 11.3)”> >So don’t let the plural spook you, τουσ αιωνασ just means “the universe”,>as you had already guessed.> >>ι cannot sort our the use of the infinitive καθρτισθαι. Is it forming a>noun >phrase with τουσ αιωνασ? In which case ι assume that τουσ αιωνασ is>the subject >of the infinitive.> >Yes, this how ι see it as well, as you can tell by my translation above.> >> However, how is that to be understood in the larger context>> with what follows… particularly the infinitive γεγονεναι?> >The phrase containing γεγονεναι is: εισ το μη εκ φαινομενων το βλεπομενον>γεγονεναι. The construction εισ το + Verb.Infinitive is the reason that>γεγονεναι comes out infinitive. In this case it expresses result. το>βλεπομενον means ‘that which is seen’.ι would expand this explanation in accordance with what ι wrote above–forclarification’s sake. The articular infinitive phrase here is anotherinstance of infinitive + subject-accusative, and the whole construction canagain be converted into English as a noun clause introduced by “that …”;since the articular infinitive phrase is object of εισ, it is equivalent toa acc.+inf. phrase introduced by hWSTE. ι‘d convert it: “so that that whichis seen has created existence out of things not appearing.” ι‘m probablyoverprecise in my conversion of perfect infinitives as statives–it maywell be that καθρτισθαι and γεγονεναι are more or less equivalent toaorist passives καταρτισθηναι and γεννηθηναι, but until ι‘m quite satisfiedonthis matter, ι‘d prefer to translate the perfects with a stative senserather than as equivalent to aorists.>The phrase ‘εκ φαινομενων‘ is an interesting one – does it mean ‘out of>that which is visible’, or ‘from appearances’? Is there an implication that>the material world is less than solid? ι‘m guessing here with very little>but a feeling in the gut. Can anybody comment on this phrase?ι think that this is the author of Hebrews using a synonym for the sake ofrhetorical inconcinnity (avoidance of precise antithesis): εκ FAINOMENWNreally means the same thing as εκ βλεπομενων, so that the sense is: “sothat what is seen has its created existence from things that are notvisible.”Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

Mt 28.19 – antecedent of AUTOUSodd twist or an ingenious translation?

Re. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3 Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Thu Jul 2 21:23:41 εδτ 1998

follow up follow up On Wed 1 Jul 98 (12:08:19), evans at wilmington.net wrote:> This is a mouthful for a under-achieving Greek student! Dear Paul: Don’t sell yourself short! You’re doing just fine.> πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… by faith we understand to have been arranged the worlds> ι cannot sort out the use of the infinitive καθρτισθαι. Is it forming> a noun phrase with τουσ αιωνασ? In which case ι assume that τουσ> αιωνασ is the subject of the infinitive. You’re right: and it is the Perfect Passive Infinitive of καταρτιζω to put in order, arrange, complete, perfect. τουσ αιωνασ is the subject of the infinitive, in the Accusative+Infinitive construction. Look up “Accusative Infinitive” in the index or Table of Contents of your Greek Grammar.> However, how is that to be> understood in the larger context with what follows… particularly the> infinitive γεγονεναι? εισ plus the accusative and Infinitive indicates Purpose; as if it were hINA plus the Subjunctive. γεγονεναι is the 2nd-Perfect Active Infinitive of γινομαι: to have become, to have been, to have been made. εισ το μη εκ φαινομενων το βλεπομενον γεγονεναι. so that not of things visible the things seeable have been made. In other words, creation /ex nihilo/.> α more practical question… *More* practical??? > How is the articular noun to be understood (τουσ αιωνασ)? Is this some> sort of idiomatic expression for the universe? Yes, basically. The Creation is the outward expression of the Creator, and is as eternal as He is, or wants it to remain. An αιων is an Age, or an Age-long creature such as the Universe. It can be of Time and Eternity, or of Space and Eternity. Compare the Doxology hWi η δοχα εισ τουσ αιωνασ των αιωνων, αμην (Galatians 1:5, and similarly elsewhere). Latin /cui est gloria in saecula saeculorum. Amen/. [Disclaimer: ι don’t mean Pantheism!]> ι am totally confused. The Greek of Hebrews is harder than anything> else in the ντ to me. (Yes ι know why, it is some of the best!) Stick at it! No gains without pains! ξαιρειν Ben– Revd Ben Crick, βα ξφ <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (υκ) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm

follow upfollow up

Thu Jul 2 23:49:33 εδτ 1998

follow up Re. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3 At 07:59 αμ 7/2/98 -0400, Carl ω. Conrad wrote:>At 12:59 αμ -0400 7/02/98, Jonathan Robie wrote:>>The phrase ‘εκ φαινομενων‘ is an interesting one – does it mean ‘out of>>that which is visible’, or ‘from appearances’? Is there an implication that>>the material world is less than solid? ι‘m guessing here with very little>>but a feeling in the gut. Can anybody comment on this phrase?> >ι think that this is the author of Hebrews using a synonym for the sake of>rhetorical inconcinnity (avoidance of precise antithesis): εκ φαινομενων>really means the same thing as εκ βλεπομενων, so that the sense is: “so>that what is seen has its created existence from things that are not>visible.” ι think the reason that ι was thinking in terms of “appearances” is that itreminds me of some passages in Plato, where φαινω is used in a middleparticiple to refer to appearances. Is there a relationship between thisuse in Hebrews and Plato’s use of the verb?Plato loves this verb, and often uses it to describe appearances. Note thathe uses it more often than any other author on Perseus:http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/persfreq?lookup=fai/nw&lang=Greek&corpus=2.0&author=&formentry=0You can see his uses here:http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/wordsearch?author=plat.&lookup=fai/nw&lang=Greek&corpus=2.0I also note that the verb φαινω only appears as a middle three times in theGNT. In Matthew 2:7, Herod asked the Magi about the time of of theappearing of the star (τον ξρονον του φαινομενου αστεροσ). In James 4:14,we are told that we do not know what our life will be like tomorrow, for weare but a mist that appears for a little while (ατμισ γαρ εστε hH προσολιγον φαινομενη). In James 4:14 and the Hebrews 11:3 passage, it felt tome that there may have been a Platonic tone to the use of the word. Is itlikely that these authors were influenced by Plato?φαινεται!Jonathan___________________________________________________________________________Jonathan Robiejwrobie at mindspring.comLittle Greek Home Page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/koineLittle Greek 101: http://sunsite.unc.edu/koine/greek/lessons Home Page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/ Archives: http://sunsite.unc.edu//archives

follow upRe. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3

Fri Jul 3 07:01:44 εδτ 1998

Re. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3 Hebrews 11:6b At 11:49 πμ -0400 7/02/98, Jonathan Robie wrote:>At 07:59 αμ 7/2/98 -0400, Carl ω. Conrad wrote:>>At 12:59 αμ -0400 7/02/98, Jonathan Robie wrote:> >>>The phrase ‘εκ φαινομενων‘ is an interesting one – does it mean ‘out of>>>that which is visible’, or ‘from appearances’? Is there an implication that>>>the material world is less than solid? ι‘m guessing here with very little>>>but a feeling in the gut. Can anybody comment on this phrase?>> >>ι think that this is the author of Hebrews using a synonym for the sake of>>rhetorical inconcinnity (avoidance of precise antithesis): εκ φαινομενων>>really means the same thing as εκ βλεπομενων, so that the sense is: “so>>that what is seen has its created existence from things that are not>>visible.”> >ι think the reason that ι was thinking in terms of “appearances” is that it>reminds me of some passages in Plato, where φαινω is used in a middle>participle to refer to appearances. Is there a relationship between this>use in Hebrews and Plato’s use of the verb?> >Plato loves this verb, and often uses it to describe appearances. Note that>he uses it more often than any other author on Perseus:> >http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/persfreq?lookup=fai/nw&lang=Greek&corpu>s=2.0&author=&formentry=0> >You can see his uses here:> >http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/wordsearch?author=plat.&lookup=fai/nw&l>ang=Greek&corpus=2.0> >ι also note that the verb φαινω only appears as a middle three times in the>γντ. In Matthew 2:7, Herod asked the Magi about the time of of the>appearing of the star (τον ξρονον του φαινομενου αστεροσ). In James 4:14,>we are told that we do not know what our life will be like tomorrow, for we>are but a mist that appears for a little while (ατμισ γαρ εστε hH προσ>ολιγον φαινομενη). In James 4:14 and the Hebrews 11:3 passage, it felt to>me that there may have been a Platonic tone to the use of the word. Is it>likely that these authors were influenced by Plato?> >φαινεται!This is the verb, in fact, on the basis of which ι first came to realizethat the so-called aorist passive –η– and –θη– forms originated, and, inmany instances, continued to be understood simply an intransitive 3rdaorists, even if they were construed with hUPO + genitive, as in:ταυτα εφανη hUPO των ξαλδαιων “These things came to light throughthe efforts of Chaldaeans” = “These things were discovered by theChaldaeans.”It is a fascinating verb in any case. In classical Attic it means “bring tolight,” “show,” “reveal” in the active, “come to light,” “become visible,””appear” in the middle-reflexive. Moreover, it functions like δοκεω,particularly in the 3rd person: i.e. with a supplementary παρτιξιπλε it iswhat is objectively evident that is underscored: φαινεται ων, δοκει ων =”he/she/it evidently (manifestly) ισ …”, while with a supplementaryINFINITIVE it is what is only superficially evident that is underscored:φαινεται ειναι, δοκει ειναι = “he/she/it σεεμσ to be (but may not, in fact,be what he/she/it seems to be …)”In the above-cited passages in Matthew and James, ι think the sense of themiddle φαινομαι is simply “be evident, be visible” without any implicationsof “seeming” or “mere appearance.” Note that both are present (i.e.progressive) participles: “the time of the star’s appearance” (which islimited temporally), and “a breathing that is evident, manifest for (only)a little time.” The phrase in Hebrews is indeed more Platonic in conception:εισ το μη εκ φαινομενων το βλεπομενον GEGONENAINo doubt γεγονεναι is a reference to creation, even though the word referssimply to “coming into being.” ι think we have a play on words here in thetwo participles, both of which are used substantivally. ι think one mightargue that the author of Hebrews envisions an ex-nihilo creation here,although the phrasing suggests it rather than implies it: “so that what isseen has its existence (derivative) from things that do not manifestthemselves.” This is the language of the early Ionian physicists, Thales,Anaximander, Anaximenes, etc., but ι do think that Platonic dualism is alsoclearly implicit in the author of Hebrews (whoever he or she may havebeen). The more classical (and Platonic too) antithesis of the sort youhave in mind, Jonathan, is δοχα/αληθεια, which, if translated with a sortof hyper-etymological intensity might be “(mere” seeming/unveiledness.”That is: δοχα is what appears, but what may not necessarily actually BEwhat it appears to be, while αληθεια is what has objective reality, even ifit is not manifest to the naked eye.ι don’t know whether this answers all your questions, Jonathan. But if not,perhaps we can talk it over face-to-face this weekend (God willing). ι willmake this much of a confident assertion: the author of Hebrews prettyevidently (φαινεται + ptc.) thinks in Platonic-dualistic terms about aworld characterized by γενεσισ και φθορα opposed to a world of permanentreality up above.Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

Re. πιστει βοουμεν καθρτισθαι τουσ αιωνασ… Heb. 11:3Hebrews 11:6b