[] Hebrews 13:17 Question David Bielby dbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
Sun May 2 10:27:39 εδτ 2004
[] πληῥσ [] Hebrews 13:17 Question Can someone illuminate my understanding of the Verb πειθεσθε from πειθω inHebrews 13:17? Is it correct to say that the dative following this verbdetermines it’s meaning? Or can it be interpreted that the middle voiceinfluences the translation to mean be persuaded in yourselves (vs. ‘obey’)??In other words…is the author telling them to obey their leaders or to bewilling to be persuaded by their leaders? “πειθεσθε τοισ ηγουμενοισ hUMWN και hUPEIKETE….” Thank you… David BielbyPastor dbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.orgwww.bloomingtonvineyard.org
[] πληῥσ[] Hebrews 13:17 Question
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun May 2 11:26:33 εδτ 2004
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question [] re: Lord’s Prayer in Greek, minor correction At 9:27 αμ -0500 5/2/04, David Bielby wrote:>Can someone illuminate my understanding of the Verb πειθεσθε from πειθω in>Hebrews 13:17? Is it correct to say that the dative following this verb>determines it’s meaning? Or can it be interpreted that the middle voice>influences the translation to mean be persuaded in yourselves (vs. ‘obey’)??>In other words…is the author telling them to obey their leaders or to be>willing to be persuaded by their leaders?> >“πειθεσθε τοισ ηγουμενοισ hUMWN και hUPEIKETE….”David, πειθομαι in the middle has always (at least since Homer) had thesense “give heed to,” “obey”–and yes, it is construed regularly with adative.– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question[] re: Lord’s Prayer in Greek, minor correction
Mon May 3 10:11:17 εδτ 2004
[] Tools for Greek question [] Hebrews 13:17 Question ι‘m being challenged on my understanding of πειθεσθε in this passage.Essentially ι‘m being told that the term here ‘obey’ carries the idea thatone should obey because you have been persuaded by the lifestyle or messageof the leaders…and that the idea of obeying leaders because they haveauthority to call you to obedience is absent in this verse. υπακουω wouldhave been used to convey that concept…but it wasn’t. If this is correct,is it because of the use of πειθεσθε and it’s relationship to πειθω &πειθοσ? My tools are limited and don’t provide other perspectives. Would you beable to elaborate for me on this term and it’s immediate context? Thank you!! David BielbyPastordbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
[] Tools for Greek question[] Hebrews 13:17 Question
Mon May 3 17:50:54 εδτ 2004
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question [] τνιδονττ At 9:11 αμ -0500 5/3/04, David Bielby wrote:>ι‘m being challenged on my understanding of πειθεσθε in this passage.>Essentially ι‘m being told that the term here ‘obey’ carries the idea that>one should obey because you have been persuaded by the lifestyle or message>of the leaders…and that the idea of obeying leaders because they have>authority to call you to obedience is absent in this verse. υπακουω would>have been used to convey that concept…but it wasn’t. If this is correct,>is it because of the use of πειθεσθε and it’s relationship to πειθω &>πειθοσ? > >My tools are limited and don’t provide other perspectives. Would you be>able to elaborate for me on this term and it’s immediate context?λ&ν has §36.12 and includes Heb 13;17 here:36.12 πειθομαι; πειθαρξεω: to submit to authority or reason by obeying -‘to obey.’πειθομαι: πειθεσθε τοισ hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN και hUPEIKETE ‘obey your leadersand submit to them’ He 13:17.πειθαρξεω: πειθαρχσαντεσ μοι μη αναγεσθαι απο θσ κῥθσ ‘you should havelistened to me and not have sailed from Crete’ Ac 27:21.βδαγ s.v. πειθω §3:3. pass. and mid., except for the pf.: to be won over as the resultof persuasion.a. be persuaded, believe abs. (Pr 26:25) Lk 16:31; Ac 17:4; Hb11:13 v.l. μη πειθομενου αυτου since he would not be persuaded Ac 21:14.πεισθεισ hUPO θσ γυναικοσ του ναβα AcPl Ha 6, 23. ω. dat. of the thing bywhich one is persuaded (opp. απιστειν; τοισ γραωδεσι μυθοισ Iren. 1, 16, 3[Harv. ι 162, 8]) τοισ λεγομενοισ (Hdt. 2, 146, 1; Jos., Bell. 7, 415) Ac28:24. πειθομαι ι believe w. hOTI foll. Hb 13:18; Hs 8, 11, 2. Ac 26:28v.l. (s. 1b above), construed w. inf. εν OLIGWi με PEIQHi ξριστιανονποιησαι in too short a time you believe you are making a Christian of me(so Bachmann, Blass). ου πειθομαι w. acc. and inf. ι cannot believe Ac26:26.b. obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod. σ. 4,31, 5 TWi CRHSMWi = the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d TWi QEWi; 36, 6g t.NOMWi του διοσ; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 QEWi×; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1;Just., δ. 9, 1; Mel., π. 93, 705; πειθομαι QEWi; Did., Gen. 225, 17; THiADIKIAi Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. απειθειν, as Himerius,Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.c. Some passages stand betw. a and b and permit either transl., w.dat. be persuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someoneAc 5:36f, 39; 23:21; 27:11 (objection of a passenger, to which the crewpaid no attention and suffered harm as a result: Chion, Ep. 4, 1 hOI δ‘ ουκεπειθοντο. Of relation between heretical leaders and their adherents Iren.3, 12, 5 [Harv. ιι 58, 10]).The oldest root forms of this verb are intransitive and middle: πεποιθα andEPIQOMHN; ι believe that the active πειθω is historically later than themiddle–note the active aorist is a sigmatic aorist επεισα; ι think thefundamental sense of πειθομαι is “put one’s confidence in someone orsomething” and so “give heed.” Although πειθομαι may in some instancesinvolve the notion of letting another’s argument win one over, but ι don’tthink that verbal persuasion is so much at the core of the verb as iscommitment in trust upon which commitment one acts compliantly.ι don’t quite understand the “challenge” you’re being put to; PEIQOMAImeans “commit to, consent to”; ι don’t think one can derive from the use ofthe verb itself some sense of what brought about the commitment or consent.Of course, if you want to delve deeper into Greek traditions associatedwith the verb (and noun) πειθω, you might take a look at Gorgias’ Encomiumof Helen, where the clever sophist ends up arguing that Helen abandoned herhusband and child and went off to Troy with Paris because she was seducedby his irresistible “line”–he argues that πειθω (the noun here) is a kindof βια or ‘coercion.’ Aeschylus has the same idea in one of the choral odesof the Agamemnon in a celebrated line: βιαται hA ταλαινα πειθω, which,though hard to English, is something like “shameless Seduction exercises acoercion.”– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question[] τνιδονττ
[] Re: Hebrews 13:17 Question Jon Boyd boyd at huxcomm.net
Wed May 5 13:46:28 εδτ 2004
[] Heb 7,24 [] Very interesting γντ, _A Readers Greek New Testamen t_ David,ι didn’t see that anyone else tried to answer your question, so ι‘ll give ita try. Heb. 13:17PEIQESQE τοισ hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN και hUPEIKETE, αυτοι γαρ αγρυπνουσιν hUPERTWN υυξων hUMWN hWS λογον αποδωσοντεσ, hINA μετα ξαρασ τουτο ποιωσιν και μηστεναζοντεσ; αλυσιτελεσ γαρ hUMIN τουτο.βδαγ lists one meaning with three submeanings for the passive and middle ofPEIQW:”To be won over as the result of persuasion”(a) be persuaded, believe(b) obey, follow w. dat. or pers. or thing(c) Some passages stand betw. α and b and permit either transl., w. dat. bepersuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someoneUnder meaning (b) they list Rom. 2:8; Gal. 3:1 v.1.; 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jam.3:3James 3:3 shows quite obviously that the word can have sense (b) with asense of authority present (horses aren’t persuaded by a person’s lifestyleor message but by a bit).The combination of πειθεσθε with hUPEIKETE would also imply some authority,since hUPEIKW has the meaning “to yield to someone’s authority” (βδαγ).Also, the fact that the leaders must watch hWS λογον αποδωσοντεσ (as oneswho will give an account) would also seem to reinforce the idea of anauthority structure in this passage (1 Pet. 5:1-5 would be relevant to theleadership issue but not this post).Hope this helps,Jonathan BoydHuxley, IAwww.BoydHome.comI’m being challenged on my understanding of πειθεσθε in this passage.Essentially ι‘m being told that the term here ‘obey’ carries the idea thatone should obey because you have been persuaded by the lifestyle or messageof the leaders…and that the idea of obeying leaders because they haveauthority to call you to obedience is absent in this verse. υπακουω wouldhave been used to convey that concept…but it wasn’t. If this is correct,is it because of the use of πειθεσθε and it’s relationship to πειθω &πειθοσ? My tools are limited and don’t provide other perspectives. Would you beable to elaborate for me on this term and it’s immediate context?Thank you!!David BielbyPastordbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
[] Heb 7,24[] Very interesting γντ, _A Readers Greek New Testamen t_
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 Scott Stocking scottsox at conxxus.com
Mon Nov 20 11:18:57 εστ 2006
[] Col 2.6 and 7 Passive participles after ActiveImperative [] Hebrews 13:17-18 Lately ι have become uncomfortable with the translation of πειθεσθε (πειθω)in Hebrews 13:17,especially when the word is used again in vs. 18 with a completely differentmeaning (at least in the νιβ).The νιβ translates vs. 17 as “Obey your leaders,’ while the τνιβ is a littleless authoritarian:”Have confidence in your leaders.” Verse 18 (πειθομεθα) is the same in both:”We are sure.”One of my lexica does list “obey” as a meaning in the passive, along withseveral other meanings.It cites Acts 5:36-37 as an example, although there the sense of the word inthat context seems more like “rally around.”My σπλανγξνον and my theology tell me to go with a translation that is lessauthoritarian, something like:”Be persuaded by your leaders,” which is closer to the τνιβ. In the νιβ, vs.17 is the only timethe word is translated “obey” in the ντ. In other words, leaders should beliving such lives that thosewho look to them as leaders would be convinced or persuaded to model theirChristian lives.ι have checked other translations and lexica, and they are diverse, as onemight expect. Scott StockingPastor, Congregational Christian ChurchAdjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College
[] Col 2.6 and 7 Passive participles after ActiveImperative[] Hebrews 13:17-18
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 George φ Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 20 12:22:12 εστ 2006
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 [] Do English speakers overinterpret case? 17. πειθεσθε τοισ hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN και hUPEIKETE, αυτοι γαρ αργυπνουσιν hUPER των υυχων hUMWN hWS λογον απποδωσοντεσ, hINA μετα χαρασ τουτο ποιωσιν και μη στεναζοντεσ, αλυσιτελεσ γαρ hUMIN TOUTO18. προσευχεσθε περι hHMWN, πειθομεθα γαρ hOTI καλην συνειδησιν εχομεν, εν πασιν καλωσ θελοντεσ αναστρεφεσθι It is not necessary to conclude that an author will use a word in the same sense every time. It is not even necessarily true that he will use a word in the same sense twice in the same sentence. Tied up with this is the development of the monarchical episcopate. When Paul in Acts 20 met with the elders (πρεσβυτερουσ) and subsequently calls the bishops (επισκοπουσ) seeminly indicating that there were a number of “overseers” or “bishops” in the church. By the time of Ignatius he could write hOQEN πρεπει hUMIN συντρεχειν THi του επισκοπου GNWMHi hOPER και ποιειτε. το γαρ αξιονομαστον hUMWN πρεσβυτεριον, του θεου αξιον, hOUTWS συνηρμοσται TWi EPISKOPWi, hWS χορδαι KIQARAi. δια τουτο εν THi hOMONOIAi hUMWN και SUMFWNWi AGAPHi ιησουσ χριστοσ αδεται.andSPOUDASWMEN ουν μη αντιτασσεσθαι TWi EPISKOPWi, hINA ωμεν QEWi hUPOTASSWMENOI. Werefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung.Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop in order that we may be subject to God. Ignatius, “Epistle to the Ephesians”, iv, v.Of course, the question is not so much how this developed as at what stage the book of Hebrews indicates itself to be. Perhaps the context here can shed some light on the meaning. Note that in v. 17 there are two things enjoined (1) πειθεσθε τοισ hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN(2) hUPEIKEITEPEIQESQE and submitIt would seem likely that even though πειθω can, and in many cases does, have the sense “be persuaded, that it would here be more nearly connected with the second injunction — to be subject.georgegfsomsel_________—– Original Message —-From: Scott Stocking <scottsox at conxxus.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:18:57 AMSubject: [] Hebrews 13:17-18Lately ι have become uncomfortable with the translation of πειθεσθε (πειθω)in Hebrews 13:17,especially when the word is used again in vs. 18 with a completely differentmeaning (at least in the νιβ).The νιβ translates vs. 17 as “Obey your leaders,’ while the τνιβ is a littleless authoritarian:”Have confidence in your leaders.” Verse 18 (πειθομεθα) is the same in both:”We are sure.”One of my lexica does list “obey” as a meaning in the passive, along withseveral other meanings.It cites Acts 5:36-37 as an example, although there the sense of the word inthat context seems more like “rally around.”My σπλανγξνον and my theology tell me to go with a translation that is lessauthoritarian, something like:”Be persuaded by your leaders,” which is closer to the τνιβ. In the νιβ, vs.17 is the only timethe word is translated “obey” in the ντ. In other words, leaders should beliving such lives that thosewho look to them as leaders would be convinced or persuaded to model theirChristian lives.ι have checked other translations and lexica, and they are diverse, as onemight expect.Scott StockingPastor, Congregational Christian ChurchAdjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Hebrews 13:17-18[] Do English speakers overinterpret case?
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Nov 20 12:32:11 εστ 2006
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 [] Hebrews 13:17-18 Surely the fundamental sense involved in the root πειθ/ποιθ/πιθ (also in its derivative πιστισ/πιστευω forms) is consensus, assurance, “going along with.” The verb then, although commonly glossed as “obey,” really should have overtones that are closer to the sense “win over” for the active; the middle πειθομαι, particularly when used with a dative complement, means “consent (to), “go along (with),” or “trust (in)” and “trust” or “be confident” when used with a clause stating a proposition. Or so ι think. Some might think ι‘m trying to bring the varied usages to tightly under a common conception, but ι think this works, more or less, in this instance.On Nov 20, 2006, at 11:18 αμ, Scott Stocking wrote:> Lately ι have become uncomfortable with the translation of πειθεσθε > (πειθω)> in Hebrews 13:17,> especially when the word is used again in vs. 18 with a completely > different> meaning (at least in the νιβ).> The νιβ translates vs. 17 as “Obey your leaders,’ while the τνιβ is > a little> less authoritarian:> “Have confidence in your leaders.” Verse 18 (πειθομεθα) is the same > in both:> “We are sure.”> One of my lexica does list “obey” as a meaning in the passive, > along with> several other meanings.> It cites Acts 5:36-37 as an example, although there the sense of > the word in> that context seems more like “rally around.”> My σπλανγξνον and my theology tell me to go with a translation that > is less> authoritarian, something like:> “Be persuaded by your leaders,” which is closer to the τνιβ. In the > νιβ, vs.> 17 is the only time> the word is translated “obey” in the ντ. In other words, leaders > should be> living such lives that those> who look to them as leaders would be convinced or persuaded to > model their> Christian lives.> ι have checked other translations and lexica, and they are diverse, > as one> might expect.> > > > Scott Stocking> > Pastor, Congregational Christian Church> > Adjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College> > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Hebrews 13:17-18[] Hebrews 13:17-18
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 Jeff Smelser jeffsmelser at ntgreek.net
Mon Nov 20 16:55:16 εστ 2006
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 [] Hebrews 13:17-18 Scott,Two examples will illustrate the breadth of meaning that πειθεσθε might encompass. First, from Dio Cassius, there is the speech of Caesar dealing with recalcitrant soldiers who were disapppointed because they had not been allowed to plunder. Caesar is careful to note that not all those in his audience are guilty of the things of which he speaks, hUMEIS μεν γαρ hOI πολλοι και πανυ ακριβωσ και καλωσ τοισ τε παραγγελμασι τοισ εμοισ πειθεσθε, “for most of you obey my orders altogether precisely and well” [Roman History, Book χλι.28]. We might think he had in mind a response to his orders more along the lines of obedience to authority than reasoned response to persuasive exhortation.However, in the speech of the exiled Andocides to the Athenians, wherein he makes his case for being allowed to return on good terms, he pleads with them saying, πειθεσθε ουν μοι, και ηδη παυσασθε ει TWi hUMWN διαβολον τι εν THi GNWMHi περι εμου παρεσθκεν, roughly translated, “Be persuaded therefore by me, and restrain yourselves now if in this matter a slanderer among you has presented something in the opinion concerning me” [On his Return, 24]. Andocides was pleading his case, not commanding obedience. Clearly here the idea is “be persuaded.”ι like Carl’s effort to recognize a common idea underlying the varied uses of πειθω, but struggled in my own mind to explain the use in Dio Cassius above in a manner consistent with that underlying idea. ι don’t doubt that it’s possible, but ι gave up trying to express it, unless maybe it is, “most of you put your trust in my orders.” After all, in the immediate context, Caesar speaks to his soldiers as a loving father to a child, arguing that it is for their good that he restrains them from greedy plundering. He speaks of his duty to teach them and protect them, admonishing (νουθετουντα) and correcting them. Of course, at the end of his speech, he had the worst of the disobedient ones executed. (Speech teachers always say you need a strong conclusion!)But in the end, ι think one will probably come to a conclusion regarding the significance of πειθεσθε in Heb. 13:17 based on his prior understanding of church leadership. For my part, ι don’t think the use here in close relation to hUPEIKETE necessitates our understanding the significance to be unlike that in Andocides. And ι do see “persuasion” as being intrinsic to the kind of leadership characterized by the ability παρακαλειν εν THi DIDASKALIAi THi hUGIAINOUSHi και τουσ αντιλεγοντασ ελεγξειν, “to exhort in the sound doctrine and to convince the opponent” (Tit. 1:9).Jeff Smelserhttp://www.ntgreek.nethttp://www.centrevillechurchofchrist.org
Tue Nov 21 23:54:08 εστ 2006
[] Do English speakers overinterpret case? [] Swanson Mark 10, p. 159 Thank you all for your comments. George, you are right to point out theconnection with hUPEIKW, but that brings up the question of mutualsubmission in Ephesians 5:21. Louw & Nida treat hUPEIKW and hUPOTASSOMAI inthe same entry, so is the connection between πειθω and hUPEIKW one of loveand mutual respect or of a more authoritarian nature? ι would lean towardthe former. Just as a husband demonstrates sacrificial love for his wife inorder that she should respect him, so leaders should demonstrate sacrificialcare and shepherding toward the flock in order that the flock might “haveconfidence in” (τνιβ) or “be persuaded by” (my translation) their leaders.Scott StockingPastor, Congregational Christian ChurchAdjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College
[] Do English speakers overinterpret case?[] Swanson Mark 10, p. 159