[] Hebrews 13:17 Question David Bielby dbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
Sun May 2 10:27:39 EDT 2004
[] PLHRHS [] Hebrews 13:17 Question Can someone illuminate my understanding of the Verb PEIQESQE from PEIQW inHebrews 13:17? Is it correct to say that the dative following this verbdetermines it’s meaning? Or can it be interpreted that the middle voiceinfluences the translation to mean be persuaded in yourselves (vs. ‘obey’)??In other words…is the author telling them to obey their leaders or to bewilling to be persuaded by their leaders? “PEIQESQE TOIS HGOUMENOIS hUMWN KAI hUPEIKETE….” Thank you… David BielbyPastor dbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.orgwww.bloomingtonvineyard.org
[] PLHRHS[] Hebrews 13:17 Question
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun May 2 11:26:33 EDT 2004
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question [] re: Lord’s Prayer in Greek, minor correction At 9:27 AM -0500 5/2/04, David Bielby wrote:>Can someone illuminate my understanding of the Verb PEIQESQE from PEIQW in>Hebrews 13:17? Is it correct to say that the dative following this verb>determines it’s meaning? Or can it be interpreted that the middle voice>influences the translation to mean be persuaded in yourselves (vs. ‘obey’)??>In other words…is the author telling them to obey their leaders or to be>willing to be persuaded by their leaders?> >“PEIQESQE TOIS HGOUMENOIS hUMWN KAI hUPEIKETE….”David, PEIQOMAI in the middle has always (at least since Homer) had thesense “give heed to,” “obey”–and yes, it is construed regularly with adative.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question[] re: Lord’s Prayer in Greek, minor correction
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question David Bielby dbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
Mon May 3 10:11:17 EDT 2004
[] Tools for Greek question [] Hebrews 13:17 Question I’m being challenged on my understanding of PEIQESQE in this passage.Essentially I’m being told that the term here ‘obey’ carries the idea thatone should obey because you have been persuaded by the lifestyle or messageof the leaders…and that the idea of obeying leaders because they haveauthority to call you to obedience is absent in this verse. UPAKOUW wouldhave been used to convey that concept…but it wasn’t. If this is correct,is it because of the use of PEIQESQE and it’s relationship to PEIQW &PEIQOS? My tools are limited and don’t provide other perspectives. Would you beable to elaborate for me on this term and it’s immediate context? Thank you!! David BielbyPastordbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
[] Tools for Greek question[] Hebrews 13:17 Question
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon May 3 17:50:54 EDT 2004
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question [] TNIDONTT At 9:11 AM -0500 5/3/04, David Bielby wrote:>I’m being challenged on my understanding of PEIQESQE in this passage.>Essentially I’m being told that the term here ‘obey’ carries the idea that>one should obey because you have been persuaded by the lifestyle or message>of the leaders…and that the idea of obeying leaders because they have>authority to call you to obedience is absent in this verse. UPAKOUW would>have been used to convey that concept…but it wasn’t. If this is correct,>is it because of the use of PEIQESQE and it’s relationship to PEIQW &>PEIQOS? > >My tools are limited and don’t provide other perspectives. Would you be>able to elaborate for me on this term and it’s immediate context?L&N has §36.12 and includes Heb 13;17 here:36.12 PEIQOMAI; PEIQARCEW: to submit to authority or reason by obeying -‘to obey.’PEIQOMAI: PEIQESQE TOIS hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN KAI hUPEIKETE ‘obey your leadersand submit to them’ He 13:17.PEIQARCEW: PEIQARCHSANTES MOI MH ANAGESQAI APO THS KRHTHS ‘you should havelistened to me and not have sailed from Crete’ Ac 27:21.BDAG s.v. PEIQW §3:3. pass. and mid., except for the pf.: to be won over as the resultof persuasion.a. be persuaded, believe abs. (Pr 26:25) Lk 16:31; Ac 17:4; Hb11:13 v.l. MH PEIQOMENOU AUTOU since he would not be persuaded Ac 21:14.PEISQEIS hUPO THS GUNAIKOS TOU NABA AcPl Ha 6, 23. W. dat. of the thing bywhich one is persuaded (opp. APISTEIN; TOIS GRAWDESI MUQOIS Iren. 1, 16, 3[Harv. I 162, 8]) TOIS LEGOMENOIS (Hdt. 2, 146, 1; Jos., Bell. 7, 415) Ac28:24. PEIQOMAI I believe w. hOTI foll. Hb 13:18; Hs 8, 11, 2. Ac 26:28v.l. (s. 1b above), construed w. inf. EN OLIGWi ME PEIQHi CRISTIANONPOIHSAI in too short a time you believe you are making a Christian of me(so Bachmann, Blass). OU PEIQOMAI w. acc. and inf. I cannot believe Ac26:26.b. obey, follow w. dat. of pers. or thing (Hom. et al.; Diod. S. 4,31, 5 TWi CRHSMWi = the oracle; Maximus Tyr. 23, 2d TWi QEWi; 36, 6g t.NOMWi TOU DIOS; Appian, Iber. 19 §73 QEWi×; pap; 4 Macc 10:13; 15:10; 18:1;Just., D. 9, 1; Mel., P. 93, 705; PEIQOMAI QEWi; Did., Gen. 225, 17; THiADIKIAi Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 92, 5]) Ro 2:8 (opp. APEIQEIN, as Himerius,Or. 69 [=Or. 22], 7); Gal 3:1 v.l.; 5:7; Hb 13:17; Js 3:3; 2 Cl 17:5; Dg5:10; IRo 7:2ab; Hm 12, 3, 3.c. Some passages stand betw. a and b and permit either transl., w.dat. be persuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someoneAc 5:36f, 39; 23:21; 27:11 (objection of a passenger, to which the crewpaid no attention and suffered harm as a result: Chion, Ep. 4, 1 hOI D’ OUKEPEIQONTO. Of relation between heretical leaders and their adherents Iren.3, 12, 5 [Harv. II 58, 10]).The oldest root forms of this verb are intransitive and middle: PEPOIQA andEPIQOMHN; I believe that the active PEIQW is historically later than themiddle–note the active aorist is a sigmatic aorist EPEISA; I think thefundamental sense of PEIQOMAI is “put one’s confidence in someone orsomething” and so “give heed.” Although PEIQOMAI may in some instancesinvolve the notion of letting another’s argument win one over, but I don’tthink that verbal persuasion is so much at the core of the verb as iscommitment in trust upon which commitment one acts compliantly.I don’t quite understand the “challenge” you’re being put to; PEIQOMAImeans “commit to, consent to”; I don’t think one can derive from the use ofthe verb itself some sense of what brought about the commitment or consent.Of course, if you want to delve deeper into Greek traditions associatedwith the verb (and noun) PEIQW, you might take a look at Gorgias’ Encomiumof Helen, where the clever sophist ends up arguing that Helen abandoned herhusband and child and went off to Troy with Paris because she was seducedby his irresistible “line”–he argues that PEIQW (the noun here) is a kindof BIA or ‘coercion.’ Aeschylus has the same idea in one of the choral odesof the Agamemnon in a celebrated line: BIATAI hA TALAINA PEIQW, which,though hard to English, is something like “shameless Seduction exercises acoercion.”– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Hebrews 13:17 Question[] TNIDONTT
[] Re: Hebrews 13:17 Question Jon Boyd boyd at huxcomm.net
Wed May 5 13:46:28 EDT 2004
[] Heb 7,24 [] Very interesting GNT, _A Readers Greek New Testamen t_ David,I didn’t see that anyone else tried to answer your question, so I’ll give ita try. Heb. 13:17PEIQESQE TOIS hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN KAI hUPEIKETE, AUTOI GAR AGRUPNOUSIN hUPERTWN YUCWN hUMWN hWS LOGON APODWSONTES, hINA META CARAS TOUTO POIWSIN KAI MHSTENAZONTES; ALUSITELES GAR hUMIN TOUTO.BDAG lists one meaning with three submeanings for the passive and middle ofPEIQW:”To be won over as the result of persuasion”(a) be persuaded, believe(b) obey, follow w. dat. or pers. or thing(c) Some passages stand betw. A and b and permit either transl., w. dat. bepersuaded by someone, take someone’s advice or obey, follow someoneUnder meaning (b) they list Rom. 2:8; Gal. 3:1 v.1.; 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jam.3:3James 3:3 shows quite obviously that the word can have sense (b) with asense of authority present (horses aren’t persuaded by a person’s lifestyleor message but by a bit).The combination of PEIQESQE with hUPEIKETE would also imply some authority,since hUPEIKW has the meaning “to yield to someone’s authority” (BDAG).Also, the fact that the leaders must watch hWS LOGON APODWSONTES (as oneswho will give an account) would also seem to reinforce the idea of anauthority structure in this passage (1 Pet. 5:1-5 would be relevant to theleadership issue but not this post).Hope this helps,Jonathan BoydHuxley, IAwww.BoydHome.comI’m being challenged on my understanding of PEIQESQE in this passage.Essentially I’m being told that the term here ‘obey’ carries the idea thatone should obey because you have been persuaded by the lifestyle or messageof the leaders…and that the idea of obeying leaders because they haveauthority to call you to obedience is absent in this verse. UPAKOUW wouldhave been used to convey that concept…but it wasn’t. If this is correct,is it because of the use of PEIQESQE and it’s relationship to PEIQW &PEIQOS? My tools are limited and don’t provide other perspectives. Would you beable to elaborate for me on this term and it’s immediate context?Thank you!!David BielbyPastordbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
[] Heb 7,24[] Very interesting GNT, _A Readers Greek New Testamen t_
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 Scott Stocking scottsox at conxxus.com
Mon Nov 20 11:18:57 EST 2006
[] Col 2.6 and 7 Passive participles after ActiveImperative [] Hebrews 13:17-18 Lately I have become uncomfortable with the translation of PEIQESQE (PEIQW)in Hebrews 13:17,especially when the word is used again in vs. 18 with a completely differentmeaning (at least in the NIV).The NIV translates vs. 17 as “Obey your leaders,’ while the TNIV is a littleless authoritarian:”Have confidence in your leaders.” Verse 18 (PEIQOMEQA) is the same in both:”We are sure.”One of my lexica does list “obey” as a meaning in the passive, along withseveral other meanings.It cites Acts 5:36-37 as an example, although there the sense of the word inthat context seems more like “rally around.”My SPLANGCNON and my theology tell me to go with a translation that is lessauthoritarian, something like:”Be persuaded by your leaders,” which is closer to the TNIV. In the NIV, vs.17 is the only timethe word is translated “obey” in the NT. In other words, leaders should beliving such lives that thosewho look to them as leaders would be convinced or persuaded to model theirChristian lives.I have checked other translations and lexica, and they are diverse, as onemight expect. Scott StockingPastor, Congregational Christian ChurchAdjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College
[] Col 2.6 and 7 Passive participles after ActiveImperative[] Hebrews 13:17-18
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Mon Nov 20 12:22:12 EST 2006
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 [] Do English speakers overinterpret case? 17. PEIQESQE TOIS hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN KAI hUPEIKETE, AUTOI GAR ARGUPNOUSIN hUPER TWN YUXWN hUMWN hWS LOGON APPODWSONTES, hINA META XARAS TOUTO POIWSIN KAI MH STENAZONTES, ALUSITELES GAR hUMIN TOUTO18. PROSEUXESQE PERI hHMWN, PEIQOMEQA GAR hOTI KALHN SUNEIDHSIN EXOMEN, EN PASIN KALWS QELONTES ANASTREFESQI It is not necessary to conclude that an author will use a word in the same sense every time. It is not even necessarily true that he will use a word in the same sense twice in the same sentence. Tied up with this is the development of the monarchical episcopate. When Paul in Acts 20 met with the elders (PRESBUTEROUS) and subsequently calls the bishops (EPISKOPOUS) seeminly indicating that there were a number of “overseers” or “bishops” in the church. By the time of Ignatius he could write hOQEN PREPEI hUMIN SUNTREXEIN THi TOU EPISKOPOU GNWMHi hOPER KAI POIEITE. TO GAR ACIONOMASTON hUMWN PRESBUTERION, TOU QEOU ACION, hOUTWS SUNHRMOSTAI TWi EPISKOPWi, hWS XORDAI KIQARAi. DIA TOUTO EN THi hOMONOIAi hUMWN KAI SUMFWNWi AGAPHi IHSOUS XRISTOS ADETAI.andSPOUDASWMEN OUN MH ANTITASSESQAI TWi EPISKOPWi, hINA WMEN QEWi hUPOTASSWMENOI. Werefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung.Let us be careful, then, not to set ourselves in opposition to the bishop in order that we may be subject to God. Ignatius, “Epistle to the Ephesians”, iv, v.Of course, the question is not so much how this developed as at what stage the book of Hebrews indicates itself to be. Perhaps the context here can shed some light on the meaning. Note that in v. 17 there are two things enjoined (1) PEIQESQE TOIS hHGOUMENOIS hUMWN(2) hUPEIKEITEPEIQESQE and submitIt would seem likely that even though PEIQW can, and in many cases does, have the sense “be persuaded, that it would here be more nearly connected with the second injunction — to be subject.georgegfsomsel_________—– Original Message —-From: Scott Stocking <scottsox at conxxus.com>To: at lists.ibiblio.orgSent: Monday, November 20, 2006 11:18:57 AMSubject: [] Hebrews 13:17-18Lately I have become uncomfortable with the translation of PEIQESQE (PEIQW)in Hebrews 13:17,especially when the word is used again in vs. 18 with a completely differentmeaning (at least in the NIV).The NIV translates vs. 17 as “Obey your leaders,’ while the TNIV is a littleless authoritarian:”Have confidence in your leaders.” Verse 18 (PEIQOMEQA) is the same in both:”We are sure.”One of my lexica does list “obey” as a meaning in the passive, along withseveral other meanings.It cites Acts 5:36-37 as an example, although there the sense of the word inthat context seems more like “rally around.”My SPLANGCNON and my theology tell me to go with a translation that is lessauthoritarian, something like:”Be persuaded by your leaders,” which is closer to the TNIV. In the NIV, vs.17 is the only timethe word is translated “obey” in the NT. In other words, leaders should beliving such lives that thosewho look to them as leaders would be convinced or persuaded to model theirChristian lives.I have checked other translations and lexica, and they are diverse, as onemight expect.Scott StockingPastor, Congregational Christian ChurchAdjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Hebrews 13:17-18[] Do English speakers overinterpret case?
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Nov 20 12:32:11 EST 2006
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 [] Hebrews 13:17-18 Surely the fundamental sense involved in the root PEIQ/POIQ/PIQ (also in its derivative PISTIS/PISTEUW forms) is consensus, assurance, “going along with.” The verb then, although commonly glossed as “obey,” really should have overtones that are closer to the sense “win over” for the active; the middle PEIQOMAI, particularly when used with a dative complement, means “consent (to), “go along (with),” or “trust (in)” and “trust” or “be confident” when used with a clause stating a proposition. Or so I think. Some might think I’m trying to bring the varied usages to tightly under a common conception, but I think this works, more or less, in this instance.On Nov 20, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Scott Stocking wrote:> Lately I have become uncomfortable with the translation of PEIQESQE > (PEIQW)> in Hebrews 13:17,> especially when the word is used again in vs. 18 with a completely > different> meaning (at least in the NIV).> The NIV translates vs. 17 as “Obey your leaders,’ while the TNIV is > a little> less authoritarian:> “Have confidence in your leaders.” Verse 18 (PEIQOMEQA) is the same > in both:> “We are sure.”> One of my lexica does list “obey” as a meaning in the passive, > along with> several other meanings.> It cites Acts 5:36-37 as an example, although there the sense of > the word in> that context seems more like “rally around.”> My SPLANGCNON and my theology tell me to go with a translation that > is less> authoritarian, something like:> “Be persuaded by your leaders,” which is closer to the TNIV. In the > NIV, vs.> 17 is the only time> the word is translated “obey” in the NT. In other words, leaders > should be> living such lives that those> who look to them as leaders would be convinced or persuaded to > model their> Christian lives.> I have checked other translations and lexica, and they are diverse, > as one> might expect.> > > > Scott Stocking> > Pastor, Congregational Christian Church> > Adjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College> > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Hebrews 13:17-18[] Hebrews 13:17-18
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 Jeff Smelser jeffsmelser at ntgreek.net
Mon Nov 20 16:55:16 EST 2006
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 [] Hebrews 13:17-18 Scott,Two examples will illustrate the breadth of meaning that PEIQESQE might encompass. First, from Dio Cassius, there is the speech of Caesar dealing with recalcitrant soldiers who were disapppointed because they had not been allowed to plunder. Caesar is careful to note that not all those in his audience are guilty of the things of which he speaks, hUMEIS MEN GAR hOI POLLOI KAI PANU AKRIBWS KAI KALWS TOIS TE PARAGGELMASI TOIS EMOIS PEIQESQE, “for most of you obey my orders altogether precisely and well” [Roman History, Book XLI.28]. We might think he had in mind a response to his orders more along the lines of obedience to authority than reasoned response to persuasive exhortation.However, in the speech of the exiled Andocides to the Athenians, wherein he makes his case for being allowed to return on good terms, he pleads with them saying, PEIQESQE OUN MOI, KAI HDH PAUSASQE EI TWi hUMWN DIABOLON TI EN THi GNWMHi PERI EMOU PARESTHKEN, roughly translated, “Be persuaded therefore by me, and restrain yourselves now if in this matter a slanderer among you has presented something in the opinion concerning me” [On his Return, 24]. Andocides was pleading his case, not commanding obedience. Clearly here the idea is “be persuaded.”I like Carl’s effort to recognize a common idea underlying the varied uses of PEIQW, but struggled in my own mind to explain the use in Dio Cassius above in a manner consistent with that underlying idea. I don’t doubt that it’s possible, but I gave up trying to express it, unless maybe it is, “most of you put your trust in my orders.” After all, in the immediate context, Caesar speaks to his soldiers as a loving father to a child, arguing that it is for their good that he restrains them from greedy plundering. He speaks of his duty to teach them and protect them, admonishing (NOUQETOUNTA) and correcting them. Of course, at the end of his speech, he had the worst of the disobedient ones executed. (Speech teachers always say you need a strong conclusion!)But in the end, I think one will probably come to a conclusion regarding the significance of PEIQESQE in Heb. 13:17 based on his prior understanding of church leadership. For my part, I don’t think the use here in close relation to hUPEIKETE necessitates our understanding the significance to be unlike that in Andocides. And I do see “persuasion” as being intrinsic to the kind of leadership characterized by the ability PARAKALEIN EN THi DIDASKALIAi THi hUGIAINOUSHi KAI TOUS ANTILEGONTAS ELEGCEIN, “to exhort in the sound doctrine and to convince the opponent” (Tit. 1:9).Jeff Smelserhttp://www.ntgreek.nethttp://www.centrevillechurchofchrist.org
[] Hebrews 13:17-18[] Hebrews 13:17-18
[] Hebrews 13:17-18 Scott Stocking scottsox at conxxus.com
Tue Nov 21 23:54:08 EST 2006
[] Do English speakers overinterpret case? [] Swanson Mark 10, p. 159 Thank you all for your comments. George, you are right to point out theconnection with hUPEIKW, but that brings up the question of mutualsubmission in Ephesians 5:21. Louw & Nida treat hUPEIKW and hUPOTASSOMAI inthe same entry, so is the connection between PEIQW and hUPEIKW one of loveand mutual respect or of a more authoritarian nature? I would lean towardthe former. Just as a husband demonstrates sacrificial love for his wife inorder that she should respect him, so leaders should demonstrate sacrificialcare and shepherding toward the flock in order that the flock might “haveconfidence in” (TNIV) or “be persuaded by” (my translation) their leaders.Scott StockingPastor, Congregational Christian ChurchAdjunct Professor, Lincoln Christian College
[] Do English speakers overinterpret case?[] Swanson Mark 10, p. 159