Hebrews 3:11 DEXROLL at aol.com DEXROLL at aol.com
Fri Nov 30 22:02:35 EST 2001
Lk 18:13; TWi hAMARTWLWi Heos Hou 3.11 hWS WMOSA EN TH ORGH MOU: EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN KATAVPAUSIVN MOU. In doing some work on Hebrews I came across this use of the conditional as a sort of negative oath. Now, I can understand the basic meaning here as ” if they shall enter my rest (or will they enter my rest ?) . No — they will not ! ( understood apodosis).” This phrase of course is repeated several times ( 4:3and 5). In 3:18 we have TISIN DE WMOSEN MH EISELEUSESQAI EIS THN KATAPAUSIN AUTOU EI MH TOIS APEIQHSASIN… Now this phrase seems to be from Numbers 14:23, although it is not the same as the Septuagint. The first phrase is an exact quote from the Septuagint in Psalm 95:11, which duplicates the Hebrew. All of this brings a number of questions:1. Is the conditional as negative oath common in Greek or a Hebraism?Robertson (p.1024) says that it is “…an imitation of the Hebrew idiom, though not un-Greek in itself.”2. The phrase in 3:18 makes a simple negative statement, so what is the difference between the two?You have a simple conditional with the future indicative in one and a simple negation with the future infinitive in the second.There are obviously more questions, but let’s start with these two. David Rollins – dexroll at aol.com “A Christian is one who recognizes Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God, as God manifested in the flesh, loving us and dying for our redemption; and who is so affected by a sense of the love of this incarnate God as to be constrained to make the will of Christ the rule of his obedience, and the glory of Christ the great end for which he lives.”Charles Hodge in John Piper’s, A Godward Life
Lk 18:13; TWi hAMARTWLWiHeos Hou
Hebrews 3:11 Steven Lo Vullo doulos at merr.com
Fri Nov 30 22:32:09 EST 2001
Heos Hou Interlinear Bibles On Friday, November 30, 2001, at 09:02 PM, DEXROLL at aol.com wrote:> 3.11 hWS WMOSA EN TH ORGH MOU:> EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN KATAVPAUSIVN MOU.> In doing some work on Hebrews I came across this use of the > conditional> as a sort of negative oath. Now, I can understand the basic meaning > here as> ” if they shall enter my rest (or will they enter my rest ?) . No — > they> will not ! ( understood apodosis).”I think, in keeping with the Hebrew background, the understood apodosis is some sort of self-maledictory oath: “If they enter into my rest, may [something really bad] happen to me.”=============Steven Lo VulloMadison, WI
Heos HouInterlinear Bibles
[] Heb 3,11 Eddie Mishoe edmishoe at yahoo.com
Wed Apr 28 21:00:55 EDT 2004
[] Heb 3,5 & 6 [] Heb 3,11 HWS WMOSA EN THi ORGHi MOU, EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THNKATAPAUSIN MOU.What is the grammatical function of EI here and is ita common expression? Somehow it seems to negate theverb (“if they shall enter in” becomes “they shall NOTenter in”).=====Eddie MishoePastor__________________________________Do you Yahoo!?Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
[] Heb 3,5 & 6[] Heb 3,11
[] Heb 3,11 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Apr 28 21:59:58 EDT 2004
[] Heb 3,11 [] New Machen Text At 6:00 PM -0700 4/28/04, Eddie Mishoe wrote:>HWS WMOSA EN THi ORGHi MOU, EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN>KATAPAUSIN MOU.> >What is the grammatical function of EI here and is it>a common expression? Somehow it seems to negate the>verb (“if they shall enter in” becomes “they shall NOT>enter in”).This is said to be a Hebrew idiom, but I think it’s intelligible as theprotasis of a condition whose apodosis isn’t expressed, e.g. “Well, if sucha thing EVER should happen …” (horses will lay eggs, etc., etc.).– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Heb 3,11[] New Machen Text
[] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 craig newsgroupstuff at swiftdsl.com.au
Wed Dec 29 21:50:45 EST 2004
[] Romans 9:22-24 EI DE.. KAI HINA…? [] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 > BTW: the Hebrews passages might also be considered as> aposiopesis in that it is distinctly stated that it is an > oath. The form> of the oath is “If X happens, then let Y happen to me” — If > he is ever> allowed to do such-and-such, may my nose rot from my face” > (or some such> consequence). I’m on my way out right now, but will attempt to take> another look at it tomorrow.> > george> gfsomselWhen I had to translate it last year, I thought the idiom in Hebrews mightbe captured by the modern phrase ‘as if…!’:”As if they will enter into my rest!”:)Craig JohnsonBrisbane, Australia
[] Romans 9:22-24 EI DE.. KAI HINA…?[] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5
[] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 Barbara D. Colt babc2 at comcast.net
Thu Dec 30 00:25:11 EST 2004
[] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 [] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 On 30 Dec 2004 at 12:50, craig wrote:> > When I had to translate it last year, I thought the idiom in Hebrews might be> captured by the modern phrase ‘as if…!’:> > “As if they will enter into my rest!”> Maybe, but if someone didn’t mentally hear with the right inflection, it would be likely to be misunderstood (or not understood at all). At least I sometimes find modern Americans a bit dense when it comes to any idioms other than the very newest.Barbara D. Colt, mailto:babc2 at comcast.netSt John the Evangelist, San Francisco>From envy, hatred, and malice and all uncharitablenessGood Lord, deliver us.
[] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5[] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5
[] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 Charles Rempel CharlesR at mygalaxyexpress.com
Thu Dec 30 10:16:21 EST 2004
[] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 [] Greek Schools Barbara D. ColtAt least I sometimes find modern Americans a bit dense when it comes to anyidiomsother than the very newest.Is that because idioms are fore idiots? :-)Charles D. Rempel30 year studentWithout Portfolio
[] RE: [B-Greel] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5[] Greek Schools
[]Hebrews 3:11; 4:3,5 Charles Rempel CharlesR at mygalaxyexpress.com
Thu Dec 30 10:59:08 EST 2004
[] Romans 9:22-24 EI DE.. KAI HINA…? [] Romans 9:22-24 EI DE.. KAI HINA…? What would the literal translation of this phrase be? And why do we changeit from literal?Charels D. Rempel30 year studentWithout Portfolio’George F Somsel’> EI does not always indicate an “‘if’ clause.” Consider Heb> 3.11; 4.3,5> (same thing repeated)> > EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN KATAPAUSIN MOU> > where it seems to function as a strong negative.Craig JohnsonAlthough I believe this is Hebrew idiom carried over into LXX?
[] Romans 9:22-24 EI DE.. KAI HINA…?[] Romans 9:22-24 EI DE.. KAI HINA…?
[] Hebrews 3.11; 4.3,5 bertdehaan at sympatico.ca bertdehaan at sympatico.ca
Thu Dec 30 13:19:24 EST 2004
[] Off Topic: PHI Greek & Latin Disk search [] RE: Eph 4:11-12 Charles Rempel” <CharlesR at mygalaxyexpress.com> wrote; Barbara D. ColtAt least I sometimes find modern Americans a bit dense when it comes to anyidiomsother than the very newest.Is that because idioms are fore idiots? :-)Just yesterday I did a Google search on ‘Porter Idioms’.It returned with a message; “Did you mean ‘Porter Idiots?'”Bert de Haan.
[] Off Topic: PHI Greek & Latin Disk search[] RE: Eph 4:11-12
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Mon Mar 24 16:38:27 EDT 2008
[] Matt 14.29 Aorist HLQEN + PROS [] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX HEB. 3:11 hWS WMOSA EN THi ORGHi MOU: EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN KATAPAUSIN MOU.Here we see an example of translation according to habit rather than according to meaning. EI is often used to translate the hebrew ‘im when it functions as a conditional particle. However, in the cases where ‘im is used as a negative particle EI is used not because it renders the meaning of ‘im in that context. Apparently the translator of the PSA 94 LXX used EI because it was the “stereotypical” translation equivalent for ‘im. This sort of translation technique explains a lot of the semantic idiosyncrasies of the LXX.Elizabeth Kline
[] Matt 14.29 Aorist HLQEN + PROS[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Mon Mar 24 17:30:12 EDT 2008
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX [] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX On Mar 24, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:> HEB. 3:11 hWS WMOSA EN THi ORGHi MOU: EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN> KATAPAUSIN MOU.> > Here we see an example of translation according to habit rather than> according to meaning. EI is often used to translate the hebrew ‘im> when it functions as a conditional particle. However, in the cases> where ‘im is used as a negative particle EI is used not because it> renders the meaning of ‘im in that context. Apparently the translator> of the PSA 94 LXX used EI because it was the “stereotypical”> translation equivalent for ‘im. This sort of translation technique> explains a lot of the semantic idiosyncrasies of the LXX.To complicate matters further, EI also appears very often for Hebrew interrogative “H”, which some regard as evidence for EI introducing a direct question.Al> > Elizabeth Kline> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Tue Mar 25 00:01:56 EDT 2008
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX [] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX On Mar 24, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Albert Pietersma wrote:> On Mar 24, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:>> HEB. 3:11 hWS WMOSA EN THi ORGHi MOU: EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN>> KATAPAUSIN MOU.>> >> Here we see an example of translation according to habit rather than>> according to meaning. EI is often used to translate the hebrew ‘im>> when it functions as a conditional particle. However, in the cases>> where ‘im is used as a negative particle EI is used not because it>> renders the meaning of ‘im in that context. Apparently the translator>> of the PSA 94 LXX used EI because it was the “stereotypical”>> translation equivalent for ‘im. This sort of translation technique>> explains a lot of the semantic idiosyncrasies of the LXX.> To complicate matters further, EI also appears very often for > Hebrew interrogative “H”, which some regard as evidence for EI > introducing a direct question.> AlThank you Al. All of this supports the notion that ‘semitisims’ is too broad a category for any useful discussion of LXX idioms. What is required is an understanding how the translators the particular LXX book in question went about doing their work. I think Tov has addressed this in several of his works. It is also interesting to look at the translation process of Greek to Syriac in the gospels. I seem to recall a professor from St Andrews, Peter Williams (??) did a dissertation on this but I don’t have the title handy.Elizabeth Kline
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX Bill Barton phos at windstream.net
Tue Mar 25 01:17:49 EDT 2008
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX [] Call for Feedback On Monday, March 24, 2008, 4:38 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:>Subject: [] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX> > HEB. 3:11 hWS WMOSA EN THi ORGHi MOU: EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN> KATAPAUSIN MOU.> > Here we see an example of translation according to habit rather than> according to meaning. EI is often used to translate the hebrew ‘im> when it functions as a conditional particle. However, in the cases> where ‘im is used as a negative particle EI is used not because it> renders the meaning of ‘im in that context. Apparently the translator> of the PSA 94 LXX used EI because it was the “stereotypical”> translation equivalent for ‘im. This sort of translation technique> explains a lot of the semantic idiosyncrasies of the LXX.> > Elizabeth KlineSimilar to the LXX, the Vulgate uses “if” (Latin si) rather than “not.”The 1611 KJV uses “not” but puts the “if” translation in the margin.I wonder if the translators (LXX, Vulgate, KJV) were worried that rendering with “not” might drift from translation into interpretation?Regards,Bill Barton
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX[] Call for Feedback
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX vunzndi at vfemail.net vunzndi at vfemail.net
Tue Mar 25 05:32:51 EDT 2008
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX [] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX Quoting Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>:> > On Mar 24, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Albert Pietersma wrote:> >> On Mar 24, 2008, at 4:38 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:>>> HEB. 3:11 hWS WMOSA EN THi ORGHi MOU: EI EISELEUSONTAI EIS THN>>> KATAPAUSIN MOU.>>> >>> Here we see an example of translation according to habit rather than>>> according to meaning. EI is often used to translate the hebrew ‘im>>> when it functions as a conditional particle. However, in the cases>>> where ‘im is used as a negative particle EI is used not because it>>> renders the meaning of ‘im in that context. Apparently the translator>>> of the PSA 94 LXX used EI because it was the “stereotypical”>>> translation equivalent for ‘im. This sort of translation technique>>> explains a lot of the semantic idiosyncrasies of the LXX.>> To complicate matters further, EI also appears very often for>> Hebrew interrogative “H”, which some regard as evidence for EI>> introducing a direct question.>> Al> > Thank you Al. All of this supports the notion that ‘semitisims’ is> too broad a category for any useful discussion of LXX idioms. What is> required is an understanding how the translators the particular LXX> book in question went about doing their work. I think Tov has> addressed this in several of his works. It is also interesting to> look at the translation process of Greek to Syriac in the gospels. I> seem to recall a professor from St Andrews, Peter Williams (??) did a> dissertation on this but I don’t have the title handy.> Interestingly such observations support traditions suggesting that the LXX was translated by a group of translators over a short period of time who had a high degree of agreement on how things should be translated. A simple one word in the source language maps to one word the target language, though not to be encouraged is what often happen, and furthermore it is easy to back translate. This process sometimes results in an enrichment of a language, as for example in the cases of the word “talent”. It should be noted that such an approache tends to be the norm for semi-bilingual communities, and it is only the brave, or foolhardy, who break the mould.John Knightley> Elizabeth Kline> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> ————————————————-This message sent through Virus Free Emailhttp://www.vfemail.net
[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX[] EI in Heb 3:11 & Psa 94:11 LXX
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