Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Bill Ross BillRoss at norisksoftware.com
Wed Jul 17 12:59:48 EDT 2002
LXX Grammar / off-topic, GOOD BOOKS 1 Corinthians 11 <Bill>I am seeking input on some considerations about the usage of DE,particularly in these passages:Here, might this usage be as a mild adversive?:Hebrews 12:6ON GAR AGAPA KURIOS PAIDEUEI MASTIGOI DE [ie: “but”]PANTA UION ON PARADECETAIAnd here, might it indicate a new thought?:Hebrews912OUDE DI AIMATOS TRAGWN KAI MOSCWN DIA DE [ie:”yearlings. Now because of…”] TOU IDIOU AIMATOS EISHLQEN EFAPAX EIS TAAGIA AIWNIAN LUTRWSIN EURAMENOSMany thanks in advance,Bill RossBillRoss at norisksoftware.com
LXX Grammar / off-topic, GOOD BOOKS1 Corinthians 11
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Mark Wilson emory2oo2 at hotmail.com
Wed Jul 17 14:14:41 EDT 2002
1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11 Bill:You wrote:——–>I am seeking input on some considerations about the usage of DE,>particularly in these passages:> >Here, might this usage be as a mild adversive?:> >Hebrews 12:6ON GAR AGAPA KURIOS PAIDEUEI MASTIGOI DE [ie: “but”]>PANTA UION ON PARADECETAI> >And here, might it indicate a new thought?:> >Hebrews912OUDE DI AIMATOS TRAGWN KAI MOSCWN DIA DE [ie:>“yearlings. Now because of…”] TOU IDIOU AIMATOS EISHLQEN EFAPAX EIS TA>AGIA AIWNIAN LUTRWSIN EURAMENOS——If your question is… does DE always denote an adversative idea, theanswer is NO. You will find this conjunction used often withoutany adversative idea.I do think though that Heb 9:12 is adversative, but not 12:6.Mark Wilson_________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
1 Corinthians 111 Corinthians 11
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Bill Ross BillRoss at norisksoftware.com
Wed Jul 17 14:37:36 EDT 2002
1 Corinthians 11 List of common idioms <Mark>>>If your question is… does DE always denote an adversative idea, theanswer is NO. You will find this conjunction used often without anyadversative idea.<Bill>I guess I was looking for insight into how to evaluate when it does andwhen it doesn’t. For example, the “in line” usage seems to me to inferan adversive, while the post-positive usage seems to imply a newthought.<Mark>>>I do think though that Heb 9:12 is adversative, but not 12:6.<Bill>Can you explain why, grammatically, you would come to those conclusions?For the reasons indicated above, I tend to come to the oppositeconclusions!Thanks,Bill Ross
1 Corinthians 11List of common idioms
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Mark Wilson emory2oo2 at hotmail.com
Wed Jul 17 17:07:41 EDT 2002
Your Amazon.com order (#103-6148556-4601416) List of common idioms Bill:You wrote:—————–>I guess I was looking for insight into how to evaluate when it does and>when it doesn’t. For example, the “in line” usage seems to me to infer>an adversive, while the post-positive usage seems to imply a new>thought.———–Not sure of your terminology here. Not familiar with “in line.” I donot think there are grammatical clues to its function. Context alonewill decide. I think DE is always post-positive, right?Next:——> >>I do think though that Heb 9:12 is adversative, but not 12:6.> ><Bill>>Can you explain why, grammatically, you would come to those conclusions?>For the reasons indicated above, I tend to come to the opposite>conclusions!————Here there is a strong CONTRAST. The blood of animals (offered)is not the basis of his entering the holy place, BUT RATHER itis by his blood. I would consider this a clear use of the adversativeDE. In fact, an ALLA would be appropriate here in my opinion.Mark Wilson_________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Your Amazon.com order (#103-6148556-4601416)List of common idioms
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Wayne Leman wayne_leman at sil.org
Wed Jul 17 17:31:59 EDT 2002
List of common idioms SWANSON’s NT Grk MSS – Romans Mark, Bill’s use of the term “in line” *may* come from discourse studieswhere some semantic entity is considered to be “on line” or “off line”,depending on whether it is part of the main chain of linguistic forms thatcarries on the main “thread” of the particular genre of a passage. For Greeknarrative genre, on line verbs would typically be finite. Off line verbs areoften participles (I think; my memory is not as good as it used to be so Imay not be recalling correctly). I would think it is possible for otherparts of speech to have on line (in line) or off line discourse functions.Hence, DE could function as a discourse level adversative, contrasting onesection (or pericope) against another, or it could function more locally,perhaps contrasting two nouns, both of which are highly ranked for “topiccontinuity” (as described by linguist T. Givon and some others).Of course, Bill may have some other meaning to “in line,” so I’m justguessing here. He can easily correct me if I have guessed wrong.Wayne—–Wayne LemanBible Translation discussion list:http://biblepacesetter.org/bibletranslation/index.html> Bill:> > You wrote:> > —————–> >I guess I was looking for insight into how to evaluate when it does and> >when it doesn’t. For example, the “in line” usage seems to me to infer> >an adversive, while the post-positive usage seems to imply a new> >thought.> ———–> > Not sure of your terminology here. Not familiar with “in line.” I do> not think there are grammatical clues to its function. Context alone> will decide. I think DE is always post-positive, right?> <snip>> Mark Wilson
List of common idiomsSWANSON’s NT Grk MSS – Romans
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of DE Bill Ross BillRoss at norisksoftware.com
Wed Jul 17 22:14:18 EDT 2002
Your Amazon.com order test, please ignore <Mark>>>Not sure of your terminology here. Not familiar with “in line.” <Bill>I think Wayne’s post is about as clear as I could define my terms.<Mark>>>I do not think there are grammatical clues to its function. Contextalone will decide. <Bill>That would then be the answer to my original question. That is what Iwanted to know.<Mark>>>I think DE is always post-positive, right?<Bill>Yes.<Mark>>>Here there is a strong CONTRAST. The blood of animals (offered) is notthe basis of his entering the holy place, BUT RATHER it is by his blood.I would consider this a clear use of the adversative DE. In fact, anALLA would be appropriate here in my opinion.<Bill>In retrospect, I think you are right. I may have been reading too muchinto the fact that he used DE rather than ALLA to begin with.Thanks,Bill Ross
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