Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of δε Bill Ross BillRoss at norisksoftware.com
Wed Jul 17 12:59:48 εδτ 2002
λχχ Grammar / off-topic, γοοδ βοοκσ 1 Corinthians 11 <Bill>ι am seeking input on some considerations about the usage of δε,particularly in these passages:Here, might this usage be as a mild adversive?:Hebrews 12:6ON γαρ αγαπα κυριοσ παιδευει μαστιγοι δε [ie: “but”]παντα υιον ον PARADECETAIAnd here, might it indicate a new thought?:Hebrews912OUDE δι αιματοσ τραγων και μοσξων δια δε [ie:”yearlings. Now because of…”] του ιδιου αιματοσ εισηλθεν εφαπαχ εισ τααγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν EURAMENOSMany thanks in advance,Bill RossBillRoss at norisksoftware.com
λχχ Grammar / off-topic, γοοδ BOOKS1 Corinthians 11
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of δε Mark Wilson emory2oo2 at hotmail.com
Wed Jul 17 14:14:41 εδτ 2002
1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11 Bill:You wrote:——–>ι am seeking input on some considerations about the usage of δε,>particularly in these passages:> >Here, might this usage be as a mild adversive?:> >Hebrews 12:6ON γαρ αγαπα κυριοσ παιδευει μαστιγοι δε [ie: “but”]>παντα υιον ον παραδεξεται> >And here, might it indicate a new thought?:> >Hebrews912OUDE δι αιματοσ τραγων και μοσξων δια δε [ie:>“yearlings. Now because of…”] του ιδιου αιματοσ εισηλθεν εφαπαχ εισ τα>αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενοσ——If your question is… does δε always denote an adversative idea, theanswer is νο. You will find this conjunction used often withoutany adversative idea.ι do think though that Heb 9:12 is adversative, but not 12:6.Mark Wilson_________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
1 Corinthians 111 Corinthians 11
Wed Jul 17 14:37:36 εδτ 2002
1 Corinthians 11 List of common idioms <Mark>>>If your question is… does δε always denote an adversative idea, theanswer is νο. You will find this conjunction used often without anyadversative idea.<Bill>ι guess ι was looking for insight into how to evaluate when it does andwhen it doesn’t. For example, the “in line” usage seems to me to inferan adversive, while the post-positive usage seems to imply a newthought.<Mark>>>ι do think though that Heb 9:12 is adversative, but not 12:6.<Bill>Can you explain why, grammatically, you would come to those conclusions?For the reasons indicated above, ι tend to come to the oppositeconclusions!Thanks,Bill Ross
1 Corinthians 11List of common idioms
Wed Jul 17 17:07:41 εδτ 2002
Your Amazon.com order (#103-6148556-4601416) List of common idioms Bill:You wrote:—————–>ι guess ι was looking for insight into how to evaluate when it does and>when it doesn’t. For example, the “in line” usage seems to me to infer>an adversive, while the post-positive usage seems to imply a new>thought.———–Not sure of your terminology here. Not familiar with “in line.” ι donot think there are grammatical clues to its function. Context alonewill decide. ι think δε is always post-positive, right?Next:——> >>ι do think though that Heb 9:12 is adversative, but not 12:6.> ><Bill>>Can you explain why, grammatically, you would come to those conclusions?>For the reasons indicated above, ι tend to come to the opposite>conclusions!————Here there is a strong ξοντραστ. The blood of animals (offered)is not the basis of his entering the holy place, βυτ ραθερ itis by his blood. ι would consider this a clear use of the adversativeDE. In fact, an αλλα would be appropriate here in my opinion.Mark Wilson_________________________________________________________________Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Your Amazon.com order (#103-6148556-4601416)List of common idioms
Hebrews 9:6, 12:6 and the usage of δε Wayne Leman wayne_leman at sil.org
Wed Jul 17 17:31:59 εδτ 2002
List of common idioms σωανσον‘s ντ Grk μσσ – Romans Mark, Bill’s use of the term “in line” *may* come from discourse studieswhere some semantic entity is considered to be “on line” or “off line”,depending on whether it is part of the main chain of linguistic forms thatcarries on the main “thread” of the particular genre of a passage. For Greeknarrative genre, on line verbs would typically be finite. Off line verbs areoften participles (ι think; my memory is not as good as it used to be so Imay not be recalling correctly). ι would think it is possible for otherparts of speech to have on line (in line) or off line discourse functions.Hence, δε could function as a discourse level adversative, contrasting onesection (or pericope) against another, or it could function more locally,perhaps contrasting two nouns, both of which are highly ranked for “topiccontinuity” (as described by linguist τ. Givon and some others).Of course, Bill may have some other meaning to “in line,” so ι‘m justguessing here. He can easily correct me if ι have guessed wrong.Wayne—–Wayne LemanBible Translation discussion list:http://biblepacesetter.org/bibletranslation/index.html> Bill:> > You wrote:> > —————–> >ι guess ι was looking for insight into how to evaluate when it does and> >when it doesn’t. For example, the “in line” usage seems to me to infer> >an adversive, while the post-positive usage seems to imply a new> >thought.> ———–> > Not sure of your terminology here. Not familiar with “in line.” ι do> not think there are grammatical clues to its function. Context alone> will decide. ι think δε is always post-positive, right?> <snip>> Mark Wilson
List of common idiomsSWANSON’s ντ Grk μσσ – Romans
Wed Jul 17 22:14:18 εδτ 2002
Your Amazon.com order test, please ignore <Mark>>>Not sure of your terminology here. Not familiar with “in line.” <Bill>ι think Wayne’s post is about as clear as ι could define my terms.<Mark>>>ι do not think there are grammatical clues to its function. Contextalone will decide. <Bill>That would then be the answer to my original question. That is what Iwanted to know.<Mark>>>ι think δε is always post-positive, right?<Bill>Yes.<Mark>>>Here there is a strong ξοντραστ. The blood of animals (offered) is notthe basis of his entering the holy place, βυτ ραθερ it is by his blood.ι would consider this a clear use of the adversative δε. In fact, anALLA would be appropriate here in my opinion.<Bill>In retrospect, ι think you are right. ι may have been reading too muchinto the fact that he used δε rather than αλλα to begin with.Thanks,Bill Ross
Your Amazon.com ordertest, please ignore