James 2:15 (loosely connected to “Compound subjects with hH” [sic]) Paul Zellmer zellmer at cag.pworld.net.ph
Sun Sep 6 19:49:32 EDT 1998
Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23) b-hebrew I didn’t realize when I asked my question about the *H* in James 2:15this past weekend that this has been an area of debate in the past.However, I finally found the time to research it in Robertson’s bigyellow tome (did I get your term right, Jonathan?) and definitely gotthe impression that this is an isolated case of *H* serving as aconjunction that _combines_ two items, which would result in a pluralsubject. The other possibility he points out is Gal 1:8, but it doesnot appear as clearly there. Since ATR’s book was written, have otherextra-biblical examples been found?In thinking about the James verse, however, another question came to me:Why is James _specifying_ the woman here? Is not the normal greek formto treat the masculine form as possibly including the feminine, whilethe feminine form is locked into its gender? If that’s the case,ADELFOS already gives the possibility for both, and H ADELFH is notreally required. Two questions then arise: Are there other cases thatyou all can recall where both the masculine and feminine are specified,and what is the significance of such specification?Any ideas?Paul–Paul and Dee Zellmer, Jimmy Guingab, Geoffrey BeltranIbanag Translation ProjectCabagan, Philippineszellmer at faith.edu.ph
Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23)b-hebrew
James 2:15 (loosely connected to “Compound subjects with hH” [sic]) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Sep 7 07:51:30 EDT 1998
b-hebrew Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23) At 6:49 PM -0500 9/06/98, Paul Zellmer wrote:>I didn’t realize when I asked my question about the *H* in James 2:15>this past weekend that this has been an area of debate in the past.>However, I finally found the time to research it in Robertson’s big>yellow tome (did I get your term right, Jonathan?) and definitely got>the impression that this is an isolated case of *H* serving as a>conjunction that _combines_ two items, which would result in a plural>subject. The other possibility he points out is Gal 1:8, but it does>not appear as clearly there. Since ATR’s book was written, have other>extra-biblical examples been found?> >In thinking about the James verse, however, another question came to me:>Why is James _specifying_ the woman here? Is not the normal greek form>to treat the masculine form as possibly including the feminine, while>the feminine form is locked into its gender? If that’s the case,>ADELFOS already gives the possibility for both, and H ADELFH is not>really required. Two questions then arise: Are there other cases that>you all can recall where both the masculine and feminine are specified,>and what is the significance of such specification?Paul:I did a quick search with Accordance and found several instances where bothADELFOS and ADELFH are used. In addition to Jas 2:15 EAN ADELFOS H ADELFHGUMNOI hUPARCWSIN KAI LEIPOMENOI THS EFHMEROU TROFHS … the mostsignificant are:Mt 12:50 (= Mk 3:35) hOSTIS GAR AN POIHSHi TO QELHMA TOU PATROS MOU TOU ENOURANOIS AUTOS MOU ADELFOS KAI ADELFH KAI MHTHR ESTIN.at 19:29 (= Mk 10:29-30) KAI PAS hOSTIS AFHKEN OIKIAS H ADELFOUS H ADEFAS HPATERA H MHTERA H TEKNA H AGROUS hENEKEN TOU ONOMATOS MOU, hEKATONPLASIONALHMYETAI KAI ZWHN AIWNION KLHRONOMHSEI.Lk 14:26 EI TIS ERCETAI PROS ME KAI OU MISEI TON PATERA hEAUTOU KAI THNMHTERA KAI THN GUNAIKA KAI TA TEKNA KAI TOUS ADELFOUS KAI TAS ADELFAS, ETITE KAI THN YUCHN hEAUTOU, OU DUNATAI EINAI MOU MAQHTHS.1Cor 7:15 EI DE hO APISTOS CWRIZETAI, CWRIZESQW: OU DEDOULWTAI hO ADELFOS HhH ADELFH EN TOIS TOIOUTOIS; EN DE EIRHNHi KEKLHKEN hUMAS hO QEOS.In my judgment, the explanation for these is simple: even if ADELFOS is thegeneric word and may technically imply ADELFH as well, I think that ADELFHis specifically added in each of the above verses to exclude anypossibility that ADELFOS may be thought to indicate ONLY the male sibling.This is surely the case with the passages from the Synoptic gospels, wherethe listing of members of a nuclear family is clearly intended to beinclusive. But I think it is quite clearly the intention in 1 Cor 7:15 andJas 2:15 as well,in both of which ADELFOS/ADELFH has reference to a memberof the body of Christ.And as for your original question about the plural predicate adjective andverb used with ADELFOS H ADELFH, I’m not sure what else you may have foundin your ATR research, but it strikes me that the )H in this instance maybe used to indicate potentially inclusive alternatives, like Latin VEL (asopposed to Latin AUT which disjoins exclusive alternatives)–i.e. )H inthis instance especially must be understood not to mean “or else” but”and/or”–and the “and” possibility is sufficient occasion for the pluralpredicate adjective GUMNOI and plural verb hUPARACWSIN.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/————– next part ————–A non-text attachment was scrubbed…Name: not availableType: text/enrichedSize: 3600 bytesDesc: not availableUrl : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19980907/60891c4a/attachment.bin
b-hebrewIsaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23)
James 2:15 (loosely connected to “Compound subjects with hH” [sic]) Jonathan Robie jonathan at texcel.no
Mon Sep 7 10:01:54 EDT 1998
b-hebrew Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23) At 07:49 AM 9/7/98 +0800, Paul Zellmer wrote: > However, I finally found the time to research it in Robertson’s big> yellow tome (did I get your term right, Jonathan?)Hah! Are my one-liners entering the oral tradition here? I call it theMassive Yellow Tome (MYT). “Big” just doesn’t seem to be the right word forthat thing.Jonathan jonathan at texcel.noTexcel Researchhttp://www.texcel.no
b-hebrewIsaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23)
James 2:15 (loosely connected to “Compound subjects with hH” [sic]) Paul Zellmer zellmer at cag.pworld.net.ph
Sun Sep 6 19:49:32 EDT 1998
Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23) b-hebrew I didn’t realize when I asked my question about the *H* in James 2:15this past weekend that this has been an area of debate in the past.However, I finally found the time to research it in Robertson’s bigyellow tome (did I get your term right, Jonathan?) and definitely gotthe impression that this is an isolated case of *H* serving as aconjunction that _combines_ two items, which would result in a pluralsubject. The other possibility he points out is Gal 1:8, but it doesnot appear as clearly there. Since ATR’s book was written, have otherextra-biblical examples been found?In thinking about the James verse, however, another question came to me:Why is James _specifying_ the woman here? Is not the normal greek formto treat the masculine form as possibly including the feminine, whilethe feminine form is locked into its gender? If that’s the case,ADELFOS already gives the possibility for both, and H ADELFH is notreally required. Two questions then arise: Are there other cases thatyou all can recall where both the masculine and feminine are specified,and what is the significance of such specification?Any ideas?Paul–Paul and Dee Zellmer, Jimmy Guingab, Geoffrey BeltranIbanag Translation ProjectCabagan, Philippineszellmer at faith.edu.ph
Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23)b-hebrew
James 2:15 (loosely connected to “Compound subjects with hH” [sic]) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Sep 7 07:51:30 EDT 1998
b-hebrew Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23) At 6:49 PM -0500 9/06/98, Paul Zellmer wrote:>I didn’t realize when I asked my question about the *H* in James 2:15>this past weekend that this has been an area of debate in the past.>However, I finally found the time to research it in Robertson’s big>yellow tome (did I get your term right, Jonathan?) and definitely got>the impression that this is an isolated case of *H* serving as a>conjunction that _combines_ two items, which would result in a plural>subject. The other possibility he points out is Gal 1:8, but it does>not appear as clearly there. Since ATR’s book was written, have other>extra-biblical examples been found?> >In thinking about the James verse, however, another question came to me:>Why is James _specifying_ the woman here? Is not the normal greek form>to treat the masculine form as possibly including the feminine, while>the feminine form is locked into its gender? If that’s the case,>ADELFOS already gives the possibility for both, and H ADELFH is not>really required. Two questions then arise: Are there other cases that>you all can recall where both the masculine and feminine are specified,>and what is the significance of such specification?Paul:I did a quick search with Accordance and found several instances where bothADELFOS and ADELFH are used. In addition to Jas 2:15 EAN ADELFOS H ADELFHGUMNOI hUPARCWSIN KAI LEIPOMENOI THS EFHMEROU TROFHS … the mostsignificant are:Mt 12:50 (= Mk 3:35) hOSTIS GAR AN POIHSHi TO QELHMA TOU PATROS MOU TOU ENOURANOIS AUTOS MOU ADELFOS KAI ADELFH KAI MHTHR ESTIN.at 19:29 (= Mk 10:29-30) KAI PAS hOSTIS AFHKEN OIKIAS H ADELFOUS H ADEFAS HPATERA H MHTERA H TEKNA H AGROUS hENEKEN TOU ONOMATOS MOU, hEKATONPLASIONALHMYETAI KAI ZWHN AIWNION KLHRONOMHSEI.Lk 14:26 EI TIS ERCETAI PROS ME KAI OU MISEI TON PATERA hEAUTOU KAI THNMHTERA KAI THN GUNAIKA KAI TA TEKNA KAI TOUS ADELFOUS KAI TAS ADELFAS, ETITE KAI THN YUCHN hEAUTOU, OU DUNATAI EINAI MOU MAQHTHS.1Cor 7:15 EI DE hO APISTOS CWRIZETAI, CWRIZESQW: OU DEDOULWTAI hO ADELFOS HhH ADELFH EN TOIS TOIOUTOIS; EN DE EIRHNHi KEKLHKEN hUMAS hO QEOS.In my judgment, the explanation for these is simple: even if ADELFOS is thegeneric word and may technically imply ADELFH as well, I think that ADELFHis specifically added in each of the above verses to exclude anypossibility that ADELFOS may be thought to indicate ONLY the male sibling.This is surely the case with the passages from the Synoptic gospels, wherethe listing of members of a nuclear family is clearly intended to beinclusive. But I think it is quite clearly the intention in 1 Cor 7:15 andJas 2:15 as well,in both of which ADELFOS/ADELFH has reference to a memberof the body of Christ.And as for your original question about the plural predicate adjective andverb used with ADELFOS H ADELFH, I’m not sure what else you may have foundin your ATR research, but it strikes me that the )H in this instance maybe used to indicate potentially inclusive alternatives, like Latin VEL (asopposed to Latin AUT which disjoins exclusive alternatives)–i.e. )H inthis instance especially must be understood not to mean “or else” but”and/or”–and the “and” possibility is sufficient occasion for the pluralpredicate adjective GUMNOI and plural verb hUPARACWSIN.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/————– next part ————–A non-text attachment was scrubbed…Name: not availableType: text/enrichedSize: 3600 bytesDesc: not availableUrl : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/19980907/60891c4a/attachment.bin
b-hebrewIsaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23)
James 2:15 (loosely connected to “Compound subjects with hH” [sic]) Jonathan Robie jonathan at texcel.no
Mon Sep 7 10:01:54 EDT 1998
b-hebrew Isaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23) At 07:49 AM 9/7/98 +0800, Paul Zellmer wrote: > However, I finally found the time to research it in Robertson’s big> yellow tome (did I get your term right, Jonathan?)Hah! Are my one-liners entering the oral tradition here? I call it theMassive Yellow Tome (MYT). “Big” just doesn’t seem to be the right word forthat thing.Jonathan jonathan at texcel.noTexcel Researchhttp://www.texcel.no
b-hebrewIsaiah 45:19 (also Isaiah 7:14 in Mt 1:23)