James 4:5 Steven Cox scox at Mail.Sparkice.ξομ.ξν
Mon Jul 19 23:32:11 εδτ 1999
book James 4:5 Where is James quoting from?προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hUMINSteven
bookJames 4:5
James 4:5 ν & ρψ Hanscamp nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
Tue Jul 20 00:37:24 εδτ 1999
James 4:5 Greek courses >Where is James quoting from?>προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hUMIN> >StevenApparently Exodus 20.5NigelNigel and Rebecca HanscampTrinity Methodist Theological CollegeAuckland Consortium of Theological Education, New ZealandEmail: nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
James 4:5Greek courses
Tue Jul 20 04:27:11 εδτ 1999
Greek courses James 4:5 Thankyou NigelBut is it possible for φθονοσ to be used in a positive sense??Steven>Apparently Exodus 20.5
Greek coursesJames 4:5
James 4:5 Al Lukaszewski alski at fuller.edu
Tue Jul 20 04:59:10 εδτ 1999
James 4:5 book The fact that James’ citation makes reference to the spirit of the deitybeing jealous can, ιμηο, intimate the use of a tradition *based upon* Exodus20.5 but the text does not seem to suggest that the author had thatparticular text in mind. Of the 7 quotations in James, only 6 are bona fideOT citations — most from Semitic source (ιμο). This, the 7th, is from anas yet unidentified source. ι think the safer path is to stick to thetraditional perspective that James is citing a text which is yet to bediscovered. Paul does this too when he refers to Jesus as saying that it ismore blessed to give than to receive (assuming a written Jesus traditionhere for illustrative purposes).ι think it might be argued that this passage in James may be derived fromthe same text as Paul’s assertion in Gal 5.17, per the NA27 marginalreference.Regards,Albert λ. Lukaszewskialski at fuller.edu <mailto:alski at fuller.edu>
James 4:5book
[Fwd: Re: James 4:5] Jonathan Ryder jpr1001 at cam.ac.uk
Tue Jul 20 07:09:06 εδτ 1999
book: πλεασε νοτε! book: πλεασε νοτε! Steven Cox wrote:> > Where is James quoting from?> προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hUMIN> > Steven> > —To add to comments already received.Off the top of my head, ι think you’ll find that some commentators argue thatJames isn’t quoting here at all, but the sentence can be construed quitedifferently. They argue, variously, that η δοκειτε hOTI κενωσ hH γραφη λεγει isstandalone ‘Or do you suppose that (the) scripture ‘speaks’ in vain?’, or thatJames has in mind the subsequent scripture in v6, or some other scripture by wayof allusion.Also, as no doubt you’re aware, commentators have various different ways ofconstruing the actual phrase in question: προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hOKATWiKISEN εν hUMIN. The basic questions are ‘is το πνευμα …’ subject orobject of επιποθει?’, and ‘whose spirit – God’s (Holy) Spirit or man’s spirit?’See, amongst others, Luke Johnson’s recent contribution to the Anchor Bibleseries for most of the above.Jonathan Ryder
book: πλεασε νοτε!book: πλεασε νοτε!
James 4:5 Ron Rhoades rrhoades at jps.net
Tue Jul 20 16:14:58 εδτ 1999
first and second aorist confusion James 4:5 ι have it in my notes that James possibly paraphrased such texts asGenesis 6:5;8:21; Proverbs 21:10; and Galatians 5:17.ι have no evidence pro or con as to the likelihood of that. Or ofother possiblesources for his quote. Anyone?Ron RhoadesSteven Cox wrote:> Where is James quoting from?> προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hUMIN> > Steven
first and second aorist confusionJames 4:5
James 4:5 Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Tue Jul 20 19:02:09 εδτ 1999
James 4:5 ιμηο? On Tue 20 Jul 99 (11:32:11 +0800), scox at mail.sparkice.com.cn wrote:> Where is James quoting from?> προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hUMIN ψα Bengel writes that because φθονοσ does not occur in the λχχ, James must be quoting from a /New Testament/ Scripture: and he offers 1 Peter 2:1, 2, and 5 as possibilities. He also suggests Galatians 5:17, where φθονοι, envyings, are place among the works of the flesh, and the Spirit is said to have desires contrary to the flesh, and they who are led by this Spirit are not under the Law but under Grace. η Alford, /The Greek New Testament/, Cambridge, 1874, /ad loc/ suggests “There is nothing improbable in the idea that James may have combined the general sense of Scripture on the point of God’s jealousy over his people….” [In Deuteronomy 32:10, 19 λχχ are found] “the elements of the sense of that which is cited”. Mitton comments “1. ‘The spirit’ is either (a) subject: ‘the spirit yearns’, or (b) object: ‘(God) yearns over the spirit’. 2. ‘The spirit’ is either (a) the Holy Spirit, given by God to indwell his people, or (b) the spirit which God breathed into man (Gn 2:7). 3. ‘Jealously’ is in the Greek a noun, ‘jealousy’, and signifies either (a) God’s longing for the full devotion of His ‘bride’, or (b) the evil quality which infects the human heart.” In many passages, God’s ‘jealousy’ over his people is expressed: e.g. Exodus 20:5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 4:24; 5:9; 6:15; Ezekiel 39:25; Joel 2:18; Zechariah 1:14; 8:2 (etc). ηθ Ben– Revd Ben Crick, βα ξφ <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (υκ) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm
James 4:5IMHO?
Wed Jul 21 00:51:17 εδτ 1999
ιμηο? οξρ While ι agree that God’s jealousy for his people is expressed in numerousplaces, ι wonder whether there are other examples where authors combine’general senses’ in ways similar to what Alford purports that James hasdone.Being in the middle of a move ι do not have access to all my referencematerials. Are there modern scholars who agree with this view? Based onwhat ι have read, ι do not recall anyone taking up this line in more moderntimes.AlAlbert λ. Lukaszewskialski at fuller.edu <mailto:alski at fuller.edu>> η Alford, /The Greek New Testament/, Cambridge, 1874, /ad loc/ suggests> “There is nothing improbable in the idea that James may have combined> the general sense of Scripture on the point of God’s jealousy over> his people….” [In Deuteronomy 32:10, 19 λχχ are found] “the elements> of the sense of that which is cited”.
ιμηο?οξρ
[] προσ φθονον James4:5 Rbsads at aol.com Rbsads at aol.com
Mon Sep 15 08:32:22 εδτ 2003
[] Re: θεοσ and κυριοσ : a strange choice of words? [] προσ φθονον James4:5 προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hHMINHow is it best to understand the phrase προσ φθονον?Several translation seems to offer different readings, either taking the phrase literally as a preposition or taking the phrase periphrastically as an adverb.”Longs toward envy.” κψβ “lusteth to envy””Enviously longs.”The ρσβ even breaks with most translations by treating το φευμα as the object of επιποθει rather than as its subject.If προσ φθονον is best considered as an adverb, what might be the object of επιποθει?And, given the resolution of προσ φθονον, how might the whole of verse 5 be understood in relation to verse 6 which completes the sentence.The νεβ renders the two verses as “(5) Or do you suppose that Scripture has no meaning when it says that the spirit which God implanted in man turns towards envious desires? (6) And yet the grace he gives is stronger.”This rendering seems to require that the referenced indwelling spirit is not the Holy Spirit, but rather something spiritual and good but less the Holy Spirit?Any thoughts are appreciated.Peace,Richard SmithChattanooga, τν
[] Re: θεοσ and κυριοσ : a strange choice of words? [] προσ φθονον James4:5
[] προσ φθονον James4:5 Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Sep 15 15:46:17 εδτ 2003
[] προσ φθονον James4:5 [] προσ φθονον James4:5 At 8:32 αμ -0400 9/15/03, Rbsads at aol.com wrote:>προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hHMIN> >How is it best to understand the phrase προσ φθονον?> >Several translation seems to offer different readings, either taking the>phrase literally as a preposition or taking the phrase periphrastically as an>adverb.> >“Longs toward envy.” κψβ “lusteth to envy”> >“Enviously longs.”> >The ρσβ even breaks with most translations by treating το φευμα as the>object of επιποθει rather than as its subject.> >If προσ φθονον is best considered as an adverb, what might be the object of>επιποθει?> >And, given the resolution of προσ φθονον, how might the whole of verse 5 be>understood in relation to verse 6 which completes the sentence.> >The νεβ renders the two verses as “(5) Or do you suppose that Scripture has>no meaning when it says that the spirit which God implanted in man turns>towards envious desires? (6) And yet the grace he gives is stronger.”> >This rendering seems to require that the referenced indwelling spirit is not>the Holy Spirit, but rather something spiritual and good but less the Holy>Spirit?α tough nut to crack; ι‘ve attempted to comment on this before, but ι haveno real confidence in any answer to the questions involved in this text.You might, for what it’s worth consult the list archives; ι‘ve found thefollowing:David ψ. Rising10:36 αμ 11/8/96Questions from James 4:5Randall McRoberts7:56 αμ 1/22/97James 4:5Francisco Orozco1:29 πμ 4/25/98Re: How to translate Jam 4.5David λ. Moore9:22 πμ 4/25/98Re: How to translate Jam 4.5Dmitriy Reznik6:13 πμ 6/13/99The meaning of φθονοσ in Ja 4:5Steven Cox11:32 πμ 7/19/99Re: James 4:5N & ρψ Hanscamp12:37 αμ 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Steven Cox4:27 αμ 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Jonathan Ryder7:09 αμ 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Ron Rhoades4:14 πμ 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Ben Crick7:02 πμ 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Harold ρ. Holmyard III2:27 πμ 5/24/00FQONOS in Jas 4:5clayton bartholomew4:22 πμ 5/24/00Re: φθονοσ in Jas 4:5Carl ω. Conrad10:21 αμ 5/25/00Re: φθονοσ in Jas 4:5Robert_Pirewicz6:36 αμ 1/10/01[] προσ FQONONmyron kauk1:07 πμ 1/10/01[] Re: προσ φθονον— Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] προσ φθονον James4:5[] προσ φθονον James4:5
[] προσ φθονον James4:5 Iver iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Sep 16 02:52:56 εδτ 2003
[] προσ φθονον James4:5 [] middle voice Richard,This is an interesting and of course difficult and disputed verse. Let meoffer some thoughts, whether original or not.First, ι think we need to see v. 5 in the context of v. 4 (and all precedingverses in the chapter) before looking at v. 6:v. 4 μοιξαλιδεσ, ουκ οιδατε hOTI hH φιλια του κοσμου εξθρα του θεου εστιν…v. 5 η δοκειτε hOTI κενωσ hH γραφη λεγει:> προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKISEN εν hHMIN> > How is it best to understand the phrase προσ φθονον?<snip>> “Enviously longs.”Yes.Although the statement is introduced as if it was a quote from the οτ, thereis no such passage, so it must be a summary of οτ teaching about God’sfeelings of jealousy towards anything that takes our devotion away form him.The verb επιποθεω is used a number of times in the γντ, always in a positivesense of “longing (to experience something good)”. Neither the words “lust”or “yearn” are helpful glosses here, ιμο. The usual contextual background inthese instances is love and affection coupled with a wish for furtherfellowship.ι take God to be the implied subject of the verb which makes το πνευμα theobject.το πνευμα can hardly be the human spirit or the breath of life from Gen 2:7(λχχ uses πνοη, not πνευμα here). It is more likely the Holy Spirit thatcomes to indwell every believer. (John 20:22, Eph 3:16-17).The previous verses talk about a war between two opposing forces, similar toGal 5: Bad desires that have their origin in φιλια του κοσμου, and gooddesires that have their origin in God and the Holy Spirit. James seems to besaying that a Christian cannot serve two masters at the same time: the worldand God, echoing the words of Jesus. If you leave your devotion to God andbecome devoted to the world, you are adulterous. James calls such peopleMOICALIDES in line with οτ terminology. It is from this background that theexpression “towards jealousy” comes in. God longs for the full devotion ofhis people, and is jealous of any other “god” (Mammon or whoever) who getsthe devotion of his people. So, ι would take the prepositional phrase as anadverbial phrase that describes God’s longing. He longs very much, even tothe extent of (προσ) being jealous.> > If προσ φθονον is best considered as an adverb, what might be the> object of επιποθει?Grammatically, the object seems to be το πνευμα, but something appears to beimplied from the word “longing”. God longs to see and experience the workand fruit of that holy Spirit whom he made to dwell in us and whose task isto counteract the works of the flesh.> > And, given the resolution of προσ φθονον, how might the whole of> verse 5 be understood in relation to verse 6 which completes the sentence.ι wouldn’t say that v. 6 completes the sentence (contra νιβ). v. 6 adds anew aspect (δε) to the war between the bad desires of the flesh and the goodlonging of God for the work of the Spirit in us to be seen and be effected.If we are humble and devoted to God, he will give us grace, and that powerof grace is greater than the power of the attraction of the world thatoccupies the proud/selfish people.Those were my thoughts, briefly stated,As for translation, ι have not found a single English version that Iconsider to give the correct meaning, assuming of course, that my exegesisis correct.My own idiomatic translation that makes some implicit information explicit,would be something like:”It is not without reason when the Scriptures say that God is jealouslylonging to see that the spirit that he caused to live in us is making usfaithful and loyal towards him.”Iver LarsenSIL translation consultant
[] προσ φθονον James4:5[] middle voice
[] James 4:5 προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKHSEN ENhHMIN Jonathan Robie jonathan.robie at datadirect.com
Tue Sep 30 13:22:05 εδτ 2003
[] 1 ξορ 11.7 [] Re: Digest, Vol 9, Issue 29 ι have spent a lot of time chewing on this:James 4:5-4:6a: η δοκειτε hOTI κενωσ hH γραφη λεγει, προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hOKATWiKHSEN εν hHMIN; μειζονα δε διδωσι χαριν.This is hard for me to make sense of, though a few possibilities seem to make sense. The New Oxford Commentary suggests that this might be interpreted as two separate questions: η δοκειτε hOTI κενωσ hH γραφη λεγει; προσ φθονον επιποθει το πνευμα hO KATWiKHSEN εν hHMIN; μειζονα δε διδωσι χαριν.This would come out something like, “Or do you think the scripture speaks in vain? [do you think that] he placed his spirit in us for jealousy?” ι have to admit that the reason ι like this is simply that ι don’t think of φθονον as something that is associated with God or with the spirit he placed in us – but does it seem to fit?Or is God being presented as a jealous husband here, who will not tolerate our adultery (see μοιξαλιδεσ in James 4:4)? In this case, though, ι don’t quite understand the role of το πνευμα hO KATWiKHSEN εν hHMIN.Several other translations have been suggested, and ι frankly don’t know quite what some of these translations would mean in English. For instance, ι can’t quite figure out what the κψβ “The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?” means. Is that the same thing as the γνβ translation “The spirit that God placed in us is filled with fierce desires”?Help!Jonathan
[] 1 ξορ 11.7[] Re: Digest, Vol 9, Issue 29