James 4:5 Steven Cox scox at Mail.Sparkice.COM.CN
Mon Jul 19 23:32:11 EDT 1999
book James 4:5 Where is James quoting from?PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMINSteven
bookJames 4:5
James 4:5 N & RJ Hanscamp nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
Tue Jul 20 00:37:24 EDT 1999
James 4:5 Greek courses >Where is James quoting from?>PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN> >StevenApparently Exodus 20.5NigelNigel and Rebecca HanscampTrinity Methodist Theological CollegeAuckland Consortium of Theological Education, New ZealandEmail: nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
James 4:5Greek courses
James 4:5 Steven Cox scox at Mail.Sparkice.COM.CN
Mon Jul 19 23:32:11 EDT 1999
book James 4:5 Where is James quoting from?PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMINSteven
bookJames 4:5
James 4:5 N & RJ Hanscamp nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
Tue Jul 20 00:37:24 EDT 1999
James 4:5 Greek courses >Where is James quoting from?>PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN> >StevenApparently Exodus 20.5NigelNigel and Rebecca HanscampTrinity Methodist Theological CollegeAuckland Consortium of Theological Education, New ZealandEmail: nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
James 4:5Greek courses
James 4:5 Steven Cox scox at Mail.Sparkice.COM.CN
Tue Jul 20 04:27:11 EDT 1999
Greek courses James 4:5 Thankyou NigelBut is it possible for FQONOS to be used in a positive sense??Steven>Apparently Exodus 20.5
Greek coursesJames 4:5
James 4:5 Steven Cox scox at Mail.Sparkice.COM.CN
Tue Jul 20 04:27:11 EDT 1999
Greek courses James 4:5 Thankyou NigelBut is it possible for FQONOS to be used in a positive sense??Steven>Apparently Exodus 20.5
Greek coursesJames 4:5
James 4:5 Al Lukaszewski alski at fuller.edu
Tue Jul 20 04:59:10 EDT 1999
James 4:5 book The fact that James’ citation makes reference to the spirit of the deitybeing jealous can, IMHO, intimate the use of a tradition *based upon* Exodus20.5 but the text does not seem to suggest that the author had thatparticular text in mind. Of the 7 quotations in James, only 6 are bona fideOT citations — most from Semitic source (IMO). This, the 7th, is from anas yet unidentified source. I think the safer path is to stick to thetraditional perspective that James is citing a text which is yet to bediscovered. Paul does this too when he refers to Jesus as saying that it ismore blessed to give than to receive (assuming a written Jesus traditionhere for illustrative purposes).I think it might be argued that this passage in James may be derived fromthe same text as Paul’s assertion in Gal 5.17, per the NA27 marginalreference.Regards,Albert L. Lukaszewskialski at fuller.edu <mailto:alski at fuller.edu>
James 4:5book
James 4:5 Al Lukaszewski alski at fuller.edu
Tue Jul 20 04:59:10 EDT 1999
James 4:5 book The fact that James’ citation makes reference to the spirit of the deitybeing jealous can, IMHO, intimate the use of a tradition *based upon* Exodus20.5 but the text does not seem to suggest that the author had thatparticular text in mind. Of the 7 quotations in James, only 6 are bona fideOT citations — most from Semitic source (IMO). This, the 7th, is from anas yet unidentified source. I think the safer path is to stick to thetraditional perspective that James is citing a text which is yet to bediscovered. Paul does this too when he refers to Jesus as saying that it ismore blessed to give than to receive (assuming a written Jesus traditionhere for illustrative purposes).I think it might be argued that this passage in James may be derived fromthe same text as Paul’s assertion in Gal 5.17, per the NA27 marginalreference.Regards,Albert L. Lukaszewskialski at fuller.edu <mailto:alski at fuller.edu>
James 4:5book
[Fwd: Re: James 4:5] Jonathan Ryder jpr1001 at cam.ac.uk
Tue Jul 20 07:09:06 EDT 1999
book: PLEASE NOTE! book: PLEASE NOTE! Steven Cox wrote:> > Where is James quoting from?> PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN> > Steven> > —To add to comments already received.Off the top of my head, I think you’ll find that some commentators argue thatJames isn’t quoting here at all, but the sentence can be construed quitedifferently. They argue, variously, that H DOKEITE hOTI KENWS hH GRAFH LEGEI isstandalone ‘Or do you suppose that (the) scripture ‘speaks’ in vain?’, or thatJames has in mind the subsequent scripture in v6, or some other scripture by wayof allusion.Also, as no doubt you’re aware, commentators have various different ways ofconstruing the actual phrase in question: PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hOKATWiKISEN EN hUMIN. The basic questions are ‘is TO PNEUMA …’ subject orobject of EPIPOQEI?’, and ‘whose spirit – God’s (Holy) Spirit or man’s spirit?’See, amongst others, Luke Johnson’s recent contribution to the Anchor Bibleseries for most of the above.Jonathan Ryder
book: PLEASE NOTE!book: PLEASE NOTE!
[Fwd: Re: James 4:5] Jonathan Ryder jpr1001 at cam.ac.uk
Tue Jul 20 07:09:06 EDT 1999
book: PLEASE NOTE! book: PLEASE NOTE! Steven Cox wrote:> > Where is James quoting from?> PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN> > Steven> > —To add to comments already received.Off the top of my head, I think you’ll find that some commentators argue thatJames isn’t quoting here at all, but the sentence can be construed quitedifferently. They argue, variously, that H DOKEITE hOTI KENWS hH GRAFH LEGEI isstandalone ‘Or do you suppose that (the) scripture ‘speaks’ in vain?’, or thatJames has in mind the subsequent scripture in v6, or some other scripture by wayof allusion.Also, as no doubt you’re aware, commentators have various different ways ofconstruing the actual phrase in question: PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hOKATWiKISEN EN hUMIN. The basic questions are ‘is TO PNEUMA …’ subject orobject of EPIPOQEI?’, and ‘whose spirit – God’s (Holy) Spirit or man’s spirit?’See, amongst others, Luke Johnson’s recent contribution to the Anchor Bibleseries for most of the above.Jonathan Ryder
book: PLEASE NOTE!book: PLEASE NOTE!
James 4:5 Ron Rhoades rrhoades at jps.net
Tue Jul 20 16:14:58 EDT 1999
first and second aorist confusion James 4:5 I have it in my notes that James possibly paraphrased such texts asGenesis 6:5;8:21; Proverbs 21:10; and Galatians 5:17.I have no evidence pro or con as to the likelihood of that. Or ofother possiblesources for his quote. Anyone?Ron RhoadesSteven Cox wrote:> Where is James quoting from?> PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN> > Steven
first and second aorist confusionJames 4:5
James 4:5 Ron Rhoades rrhoades at jps.net
Tue Jul 20 16:14:58 EDT 1999
first and second aorist confusion James 4:5 I have it in my notes that James possibly paraphrased such texts asGenesis 6:5;8:21; Proverbs 21:10; and Galatians 5:17.I have no evidence pro or con as to the likelihood of that. Or ofother possiblesources for his quote. Anyone?Ron RhoadesSteven Cox wrote:> Where is James quoting from?> PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN> > Steven
first and second aorist confusionJames 4:5
James 4:5 Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Tue Jul 20 19:02:09 EDT 1999
James 4:5 IMHO? On Tue 20 Jul 99 (11:32:11 +0800), scox at mail.sparkice.com.cn wrote:> Where is James quoting from?> PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN JA Bengel writes that because FQONOS does not occur in the LXX, James must be quoting from a /New Testament/ Scripture: and he offers 1 Peter 2:1, 2, and 5 as possibilities. He also suggests Galatians 5:17, where FQONOI, envyings, are place among the works of the flesh, and the Spirit is said to have desires contrary to the flesh, and they who are led by this Spirit are not under the Law but under Grace. H Alford, /The Greek New Testament/, Cambridge, 1874, /ad loc/ suggests “There is nothing improbable in the idea that James may have combined the general sense of Scripture on the point of God’s jealousy over his people….” [In Deuteronomy 32:10, 19 LXX are found] “the elements of the sense of that which is cited”. Mitton comments “1. ‘The spirit’ is either (a) subject: ‘the spirit yearns’, or (b) object: ‘(God) yearns over the spirit’. 2. ‘The spirit’ is either (a) the Holy Spirit, given by God to indwell his people, or (b) the spirit which God breathed into man (Gn 2:7). 3. ‘Jealously’ is in the Greek a noun, ‘jealousy’, and signifies either (a) God’s longing for the full devotion of His ‘bride’, or (b) the evil quality which infects the human heart.” In many passages, God’s ‘jealousy’ over his people is expressed: e.g. Exodus 20:5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 4:24; 5:9; 6:15; Ezekiel 39:25; Joel 2:18; Zechariah 1:14; 8:2 (etc). HTH Ben– Revd Ben Crick, BA CF <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm
James 4:5IMHO?
James 4:5 Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Tue Jul 20 19:02:09 EDT 1999
James 4:5 IMHO? On Tue 20 Jul 99 (11:32:11 +0800), scox at mail.sparkice.com.cn wrote:> Where is James quoting from?> PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hUMIN JA Bengel writes that because FQONOS does not occur in the LXX, James must be quoting from a /New Testament/ Scripture: and he offers 1 Peter 2:1, 2, and 5 as possibilities. He also suggests Galatians 5:17, where FQONOI, envyings, are place among the works of the flesh, and the Spirit is said to have desires contrary to the flesh, and they who are led by this Spirit are not under the Law but under Grace. H Alford, /The Greek New Testament/, Cambridge, 1874, /ad loc/ suggests “There is nothing improbable in the idea that James may have combined the general sense of Scripture on the point of God’s jealousy over his people….” [In Deuteronomy 32:10, 19 LXX are found] “the elements of the sense of that which is cited”. Mitton comments “1. ‘The spirit’ is either (a) subject: ‘the spirit yearns’, or (b) object: ‘(God) yearns over the spirit’. 2. ‘The spirit’ is either (a) the Holy Spirit, given by God to indwell his people, or (b) the spirit which God breathed into man (Gn 2:7). 3. ‘Jealously’ is in the Greek a noun, ‘jealousy’, and signifies either (a) God’s longing for the full devotion of His ‘bride’, or (b) the evil quality which infects the human heart.” In many passages, God’s ‘jealousy’ over his people is expressed: e.g. Exodus 20:5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 4:24; 5:9; 6:15; Ezekiel 39:25; Joel 2:18; Zechariah 1:14; 8:2 (etc). HTH Ben– Revd Ben Crick, BA CF <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm
James 4:5IMHO?
James 4:5 Al Lukaszewski alski at fuller.edu
Wed Jul 21 00:51:17 EDT 1999
IMHO? OCR While I agree that God’s jealousy for his people is expressed in numerousplaces, I wonder whether there are other examples where authors combine’general senses’ in ways similar to what Alford purports that James hasdone.Being in the middle of a move I do not have access to all my referencematerials. Are there modern scholars who agree with this view? Based onwhat I have read, I do not recall anyone taking up this line in more moderntimes.AlAlbert L. Lukaszewskialski at fuller.edu <mailto:alski at fuller.edu>> H Alford, /The Greek New Testament/, Cambridge, 1874, /ad loc/ suggests> “There is nothing improbable in the idea that James may have combined> the general sense of Scripture on the point of God’s jealousy over> his people….” [In Deuteronomy 32:10, 19 LXX are found] “the elements> of the sense of that which is cited”.
IMHO?OCR
James 4:5 Al Lukaszewski alski at fuller.edu
Wed Jul 21 00:51:17 EDT 1999
IMHO? OCR While I agree that God’s jealousy for his people is expressed in numerousplaces, I wonder whether there are other examples where authors combine’general senses’ in ways similar to what Alford purports that James hasdone.Being in the middle of a move I do not have access to all my referencematerials. Are there modern scholars who agree with this view? Based onwhat I have read, I do not recall anyone taking up this line in more moderntimes.AlAlbert L. Lukaszewskialski at fuller.edu <mailto:alski at fuller.edu>> H Alford, /The Greek New Testament/, Cambridge, 1874, /ad loc/ suggests> “There is nothing improbable in the idea that James may have combined> the general sense of Scripture on the point of God’s jealousy over> his people….” [In Deuteronomy 32:10, 19 LXX are found] “the elements> of the sense of that which is cited”.
IMHO?OCR
[] PROS FQONON James4:5 Rbsads at aol.com Rbsads at aol.com
Mon Sep 15 08:32:22 EDT 2003
[] Re: QEOS and KURIOS : a strange choice of words? [] PROS FQONON James4:5 PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hHMINHow is it best to understand the phrase PROS FQONON?Several translation seems to offer different readings, either taking the phrase literally as a preposition or taking the phrase periphrastically as an adverb.”Longs toward envy.” KJV “lusteth to envy””Enviously longs.”The RSV even breaks with most translations by treating TO PHEUMA as the object of EPIPOQEI rather than as its subject.If PROS FQONON is best considered as an adverb, what might be the object of EPIPOQEI?And, given the resolution of PROS FQONON, how might the whole of verse 5 be understood in relation to verse 6 which completes the sentence.The NEB renders the two verses as “(5) Or do you suppose that Scripture has no meaning when it says that the spirit which God implanted in man turns towards envious desires? (6) And yet the grace he gives is stronger.”This rendering seems to require that the referenced indwelling spirit is not the Holy Spirit, but rather something spiritual and good but less the Holy Spirit?Any thoughts are appreciated.Peace,Richard SmithChattanooga, TN
[] Re: QEOS and KURIOS : a strange choice of words? [] PROS FQONON James4:5
[] PROS FQONON James4:5 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Sep 15 15:46:17 EDT 2003
[] PROS FQONON James4:5 [] PROS FQONON James4:5 At 8:32 AM -0400 9/15/03, Rbsads at aol.com wrote:>PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hHMIN> >How is it best to understand the phrase PROS FQONON?> >Several translation seems to offer different readings, either taking the>phrase literally as a preposition or taking the phrase periphrastically as an>adverb.> >“Longs toward envy.” KJV “lusteth to envy”> >“Enviously longs.”> >The RSV even breaks with most translations by treating TO PHEUMA as the>object of EPIPOQEI rather than as its subject.> >If PROS FQONON is best considered as an adverb, what might be the object of>EPIPOQEI?> >And, given the resolution of PROS FQONON, how might the whole of verse 5 be>understood in relation to verse 6 which completes the sentence.> >The NEB renders the two verses as “(5) Or do you suppose that Scripture has>no meaning when it says that the spirit which God implanted in man turns>towards envious desires? (6) And yet the grace he gives is stronger.”> >This rendering seems to require that the referenced indwelling spirit is not>the Holy Spirit, but rather something spiritual and good but less the Holy>Spirit?A tough nut to crack; I’ve attempted to comment on this before, but I haveno real confidence in any answer to the questions involved in this text.You might, for what it’s worth consult the list archives; I’ve found thefollowing:David J. Rising10:36 AM 11/8/96Questions from James 4:5Randall McRoberts7:56 AM 1/22/97James 4:5Francisco Orozco1:29 PM 4/25/98Re: How to translate Jam 4.5David L. Moore9:22 PM 4/25/98Re: How to translate Jam 4.5Dmitriy Reznik6:13 PM 6/13/99The meaning of FQONOS in Ja 4:5Steven Cox11:32 PM 7/19/99Re: James 4:5N & RJ Hanscamp12:37 AM 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Steven Cox4:27 AM 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Jonathan Ryder7:09 AM 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Ron Rhoades4:14 PM 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Ben Crick7:02 PM 7/20/99Re: James 4:5Harold R. Holmyard III2:27 PM 5/24/00FQONOS in Jas 4:5clayton bartholomew4:22 PM 5/24/00Re: FQONOS in Jas 4:5Carl W. Conrad10:21 AM 5/25/00Re: FQONOS in Jas 4:5Robert_Pirewicz6:36 AM 1/10/01[] PROS FQONONmyron kauk1:07 PM 1/10/01[] Re: PROS FQONON– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] PROS FQONON James4:5[] PROS FQONON James4:5
[] PROS FQONON James4:5 Iver iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Sep 16 02:52:56 EDT 2003
[] PROS FQONON James4:5 [] middle voice Richard,This is an interesting and of course difficult and disputed verse. Let meoffer some thoughts, whether original or not.First, I think we need to see v. 5 in the context of v. 4 (and all precedingverses in the chapter) before looking at v. 6:v. 4 MOICALIDES, OUK OIDATE hOTI hH FILIA TOU KOSMOU ECQRA TOU QEOU ESTIN…v. 5 H DOKEITE hOTI KENWS hH GRAFH LEGEI:> PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKISEN EN hHMIN> > How is it best to understand the phrase PROS FQONON?<snip>> “Enviously longs.”Yes.Although the statement is introduced as if it was a quote from the OT, thereis no such passage, so it must be a summary of OT teaching about God’sfeelings of jealousy towards anything that takes our devotion away form him.The verb EPIPOQEW is used a number of times in the GNT, always in a positivesense of “longing (to experience something good)”. Neither the words “lust”or “yearn” are helpful glosses here, IMO. The usual contextual background inthese instances is love and affection coupled with a wish for furtherfellowship.I take God to be the implied subject of the verb which makes TO PNEUMA theobject.TO PNEUMA can hardly be the human spirit or the breath of life from Gen 2:7(LXX uses PNOH, not PNEUMA here). It is more likely the Holy Spirit thatcomes to indwell every believer. (John 20:22, Eph 3:16-17).The previous verses talk about a war between two opposing forces, similar toGal 5: Bad desires that have their origin in FILIA TOU KOSMOU, and gooddesires that have their origin in God and the Holy Spirit. James seems to besaying that a Christian cannot serve two masters at the same time: the worldand God, echoing the words of Jesus. If you leave your devotion to God andbecome devoted to the world, you are adulterous. James calls such peopleMOICALIDES in line with OT terminology. It is from this background that theexpression “towards jealousy” comes in. God longs for the full devotion ofhis people, and is jealous of any other “god” (Mammon or whoever) who getsthe devotion of his people. So, I would take the prepositional phrase as anadverbial phrase that describes God’s longing. He longs very much, even tothe extent of (PROS) being jealous.> > If PROS FQONON is best considered as an adverb, what might be the> object of EPIPOQEI?Grammatically, the object seems to be TO PNEUMA, but something appears to beimplied from the word “longing”. God longs to see and experience the workand fruit of that holy Spirit whom he made to dwell in us and whose task isto counteract the works of the flesh.> > And, given the resolution of PROS FQONON, how might the whole of> verse 5 be understood in relation to verse 6 which completes the sentence.I wouldn’t say that v. 6 completes the sentence (contra NIV). v. 6 adds anew aspect (DE) to the war between the bad desires of the flesh and the goodlonging of God for the work of the Spirit in us to be seen and be effected.If we are humble and devoted to God, he will give us grace, and that powerof grace is greater than the power of the attraction of the world thatoccupies the proud/selfish people.Those were my thoughts, briefly stated,As for translation, I have not found a single English version that Iconsider to give the correct meaning, assuming of course, that my exegesisis correct.My own idiomatic translation that makes some implicit information explicit,would be something like:”It is not without reason when the Scriptures say that God is jealouslylonging to see that the spirit that he caused to live in us is making usfaithful and loyal towards him.”Iver LarsenSIL translation consultant
[] PROS FQONON James4:5[] middle voice
[] James 4:5 PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKHSEN ENhHMIN Jonathan Robie jonathan.robie at datadirect.com
Tue Sep 30 13:22:05 EDT 2003
[] 1 COR 11.7 [] Re: Digest, Vol 9, Issue 29 I have spent a lot of time chewing on this:James 4:5-4:6a: H DOKEITE hOTI KENWS hH GRAFH LEGEI, PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hOKATWiKHSEN EN hHMIN; MEIZONA DE DIDWSI XARIN.This is hard for me to make sense of, though a few possibilities seem to make sense. The New Oxford Commentary suggests that this might be interpreted as two separate questions: H DOKEITE hOTI KENWS hH GRAFH LEGEI; PROS FQONON EPIPOQEI TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKHSEN EN hHMIN; MEIZONA DE DIDWSI XARIN.This would come out something like, “Or do you think the scripture speaks in vain? [do you think that] he placed his spirit in us for jealousy?” I have to admit that the reason I like this is simply that I don’t think of FQONON as something that is associated with God or with the spirit he placed in us – but does it seem to fit?Or is God being presented as a jealous husband here, who will not tolerate our adultery (see MOICALIDES in James 4:4)? In this case, though, I don’t quite understand the role of TO PNEUMA hO KATWiKHSEN EN hHMIN.Several other translations have been suggested, and I frankly don’t know quite what some of these translations would mean in English. For instance, I can’t quite figure out what the KJV “The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?” means. Is that the same thing as the GNB translation “The spirit that God placed in us is filled with fierce desires”?Help!Jonathan
[] 1 COR 11.7[] Re: Digest, Vol 9, Issue 29