John 13:1

Greek word in the Passover? Rob Matlack united_by_truth at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 23 10:24:56 εστ 2002

Good History of Biblical Greek/Koine Scholarship? Greek word in the Passover? ι have run across some material that comments on the Passover Seder thatdeveloped soon after the time of Christ. The argument presented is that thebroken Matzah is called by a Greek word “afikomen” (ηφικομεν ?, it was notwritten in Greek characters) which is supposedly the aorist of “ikneomai”(ικνεομαι ??) and means “he came”. This does not appear to be a ντ verb,though that in an of itself is not a problem. However, it does seem to havesome other problems: 1) would we not expect a sigma and an alpha in theaorist form? 2) the –ομεν ending seems to be an active 1st person pluralwhich would be unusual with a “deponent” verb, wouldn’t it? Can anyone shedany light on this?Rob Matlack united_by_truth at yahoo.comMinneapolis, κσ“ι can only say that ι am nothing but a poor sinner, trusting in Christalone for salvation”–ρ. ε. Lee”It is not our task to secure the triumph of truth, but merely to fight onit’s behalf.”–Blaise Pascal—Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by αβγ anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.314 / Virus Database: 175 – Release Date: 1/11/02_________________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Good History of Biblical Greek/Koine Scholarship?Greek word in the Passover?

Greek word in the Passover? Kevin ω. Woodruff cierpke at prodigy.net
Wed Jan 23 10:56:05 εστ 2002

Greek word in the Passover? Mark 8:12 rob:The 2nd aorist of hIKNEOMAI is hIKOMHN. It occurs in Homer’s Illiad 8.148.,It also occurs as αφικνεομαι is used in early prose according to Liddelland ScottAt 09:24 αμ 1/23/2002 -0600, you wrote:>ι have run across some material that comments on the Passover Seder that>developed soon after the time of Christ. The argument presented is that the>broken Matzah is called by a Greek word “afikomen” (ηφικομεν ?, it was not>written in Greek characters) which is supposedly the aorist of “ikneomai”>(ικνεομαι ??) and means “he came”. This does not appear to be a ντ verb,>though that in an of itself is not a problem. However, it does seem to have>some other problems: 1) would we not expect a sigma and an alpha in the>aorist form? 2) the –ομεν ending seems to be an active 1st person plural>which would be unusual with a “deponent” verb, wouldn’t it? Can anyone shed>any light on this?> >Rob Matlack united_by_truth at yahoo.com>Minneapolis, κσ>“ι can only say that ι am nothing but a poor sinner, trusting in Christ>alone for salvation”–ρ. ε. Lee>“It is not our task to secure the triumph of truth, but merely to fight on>it’s behalf.”–Blaise Pascal>—>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.>Checked by αβγ anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).>Version: 6.0.314 / Virus Database: 175 – Release Date: 1/11/02> > > >_________________________________________________________> >Do You Yahoo!?> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com> > > > >—> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>You are currently subscribed to as: [cierpke at prodigy.net]>To unsubscribe, forward this message to$subst(‘Email.Unsub’)>To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> > > Kevin ω. Woodruff, μ. Div.Library Director/Reference LibrarianProfessor of New Testament GreekCierpke Memorial LibraryTennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary1815 Union Ave. Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404United States of America423/493-4252 (office)423/698-9447 (home)423/493-4497 (φαχ)Cierpke at prodigy.net (preferred)kwoodruf at utk.edu (alternate)http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

Greek word in the Passover?Mark 8:12

Greek word in the Passover? Awohili at aol.com Awohili at aol.com
Wed Jan 23 12:19:22 εστ 2002

Mark 8:12 Good History of Biblical Greek/Koine Scholarship? However, the Mishnah (Pesachim 10:8) commentary by Philip Blackman (Judaica Press, 1963) and Marcus Jastrow’s Dictionary (page 104; Judaica Press, 1996) point in another direction. They both derive αφικομαν (originally, επικομιν) from the Greek επικωμον (επι + κωμοσ), “aftermeal entertainment,” and επικωμοι, “things belonging to the aftermeal.”Solomon LandersIn a message dated 01/23/2002 8:01:35 αμ Pacific Standard Time, cierpke at prodigy.net writes:> rob:> > The 2nd aorist of hIKNEOMAI is hIKOMHN. It occurs in Homer’s Illiad 8.148.,> It also occurs as αφικνεομαι is used in early prose according to Liddell> and Scott

Mark 8:12Good History of Biblical Greek/Koine Scholarship?

[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1 Roe d.roe at t-online.de
Sat Apr 5 11:27:02 εστ 2003

[] παρουσια [] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1 Greetings s,προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα ειδωσ hO ιησουσ hOTI ηλθεν αυτου hH hWRA[…] εισ τελοσ ηγαφσεν αυτουσ(John 13:1)The text above is often translated something like: “Now (it was) beforethe feast of passover; Jesus knowing his hour had come … loved themunto the end” Would the first part of this verse better be translated: “Jesus, knowingalready before the feast of the passover that his hour had come …loved them unto the end”?Or would such a translation require/prefer hO ιησουσ to be placeddifferently in the Greek text:hO ιησουσ προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα ειδωσ hOTI ηλθεν αυτου hH hWRA[…] εισ τελοσ ηγαφσεν AUTOUSThanks,DavidD.ω. RoeRheinland-Pfalz, Germany

[] παρουσια[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1

[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1 Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Apr 5 11:34:46 εστ 2003

[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1 [] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1 At 6:27 πμ +0200 4/5/03, Roe wrote:>Greetings s,> >προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα ειδωσ hO ιησουσ hOTI ηλθεν αυτου hH hWRA>[…] εισ τελοσ ηγαφσεν αυτουσ> >(John 13:1)> >The text above is often translated something like: “Now (it was) before>the feast of passover; Jesus knowing his hour had come … loved them>unto the end”> >Would the first part of this verse better be translated: “Jesus, knowing>already before the feast of the passover that his hour had come …>loved them unto the end”?> >Or would such a translation require/prefer hO ιησουσ to be placed>differently in the Greek text:> >hO ιησουσ προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα ειδωσ hOTI ηλθεν αυτου hH hWRA>[…] εισ τελοσ ηγαφσεν αυτουσι think what you’re asking is more a matter of how best to English theGreek rather than how to understand the Greek. Certainly the προ + genitivephrase is adverbial as is the participial phrase ειδωσ hOTI …; bothdepend upon the main verb ηγαφσεν. Your suggested version is more literal,but what you cite as “the usual translation” does not distort the sense somuch as rearrange it into a more intelligible or normal English word-order.ι don’t think you should expect translations to convey literally the exactconstruction of the Greek; ι personally think it is enough to convey thesense of the Greek original in clear and intelligible format in the targetlanguage; that’s difficult enough to do. But all this is really a matter oftranslation theory, not of how the Greek text in this instance is to beunderstood.– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1

Sat Apr 5 12:06:42 εστ 2003

[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1 [] Advancing from the Basics (many questions) Carl ω. Conrad wrote:> ι think what you’re asking is more a matter of how best to English the> Greek rather than how to understand the Greek. Certainly the προ + genitive> phrase is adverbial as is the participial phrase ειδωσ hOTI …; both> depend upon the main verb ηγαφσεν. Your suggested version is more literal,> but what you cite as “the usual translation” does not distort the sense so> much as rearrange it into a more intelligible or normal English word-order.> ι don’t think you should expect translations to convey literally the exact> construction of the Greek; ι personally think it is enough to convey the> sense of the Greek original in clear and intelligible format in the target> language; that’s difficult enough to do. But all this is really a matter of> translation theory, not of how the Greek text in this instance is to be> understood.> —Hi and thanks, Carl.ι was looking at the possibility that it already is passover, and thatPRO δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα indicates only that Jesus’ knowledge thathis hour had come was “pre-passover” knowledge, without indicating thepassover-relative time of the activity in subsequent verses. DavidD.ω. RoeRheinland-Pfalz, GermanyI had written:> >προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα ειδωσ hO ιησουσ hOTI ηλθεν αυτου hH hWRA> >[…] εισ τελοσ ηγαφσεν αυτουσ> >> >(John 13:1)> >> >The text above is often translated something like: “Now (it was) before> >the feast of passover; Jesus knowing his hour had come … loved them> >unto the end”> >> >Would the first part of this verse better be translated: “Jesus, knowing> >already before the feast of the passover that his hour had come …> >loved them unto the end”? […]

[] προ δε θσ hEORTHS του πασξα – John 13:1[] Advancing from the Basics (many questions)

[] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew Randall Buth randallbuth at gmail.com
Mon Apr 2 10:45:48 εδτ 2007

[] Easter question [] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew There is a technical point on transliteration from Hebrew to Greekthat is worth further discussion for those focussing on ντ Greek.Pietersma εγραψε>If you you check the first passover account in Ex 12, you will see thatthe λχχ has πασχα (v.11), a transcription of the Aramaic term, ratherthan the Hebrew. This probably means that when the Hebrew Pentateuchwas translated into Greek, Alexandrian Jews referred to the festival bythat name.>Al is correct is suggesting that πασχα reflects a form that wasprobably already current in Alexandria in Greek in the Jewishcommunity that produced the λχχ.However, it should be pointed out that the λχχ translator wastransliterating the Hebrew word at Ex 12:11. That is, a Hebrew source”pesaH” produced a form πασχα in Greek at Ex 12:11. (reasons to bediscussed below). [[There is no indication that the λχχ translator wasworking from an Aramaic text, in fact there is no indication that anAramaic text of the Torah even existed in pre-Christian times. the OldGreek does mention the use of an Aramaic text when translating Job. Ifour Aramaic Job from Qumran is any indication, that text probably camefrom Mesopotamia in the East.]]Why is this important? Because one needs to be able to correctly go inthe other direction. If a Greek text was found with a form πασχα,along with other signals of translation from a Semitic source, wouldsomeone declare that the source text was Aramaic and could not beHebrew? This very logic, mistaken, turns up in ντ studies frequently,like at Luke 1:15 where we find σικερα. σικερα is ‘beer’ and is atransliteration from ηεβρεω “shexar” found in the λχχ (Lv 10:9, Nu6:3, 28:7, Dt 14:26, 29:5). Hebrew shexar is always rendered sikera inthe Tora, though sometimes translated μεθυσμα in other books (1Sm1:15, Mic 2:11. οινοσ Ps 69:13=68:13, Prov 31:4, μεθη Prov 20:1, 31:6,)The question as to why Hebrew shexar would be transliterated σικερα inGreek is an interesting question in its own right. That shexar meansbeer is probable because of Akkadian and archaeology. But whytransliterate instead of using a Greek word for beer?Well — have you ever tried to find the Greek word for beer? this isnot an easy endeavor. Modern Greeks cannot help because they use’bira’. Papyri come to the rescue. ι‘ve run accross ζυθοσ in ancientpapyri though haven’t checked where this occurs in literary texts.apparently, ζυθοσ was not a high-class or popular drink in Greeksociety. In any case the λχχ translators preferred transliteration, ora general translation ‘alcoholic drink/wine’.So finally, why would the form σικερα be chosen in Greek when workingfrom a Hebrew text? Probably two reasons, 1) a form of a word endingin ‘a’ is more euphonic in Greek and matches the vowel of a regularneuter ending found in –μα words, πνευμα, φρονημα ktl. 2) From theBlack Sea to Egypt, Greek was interfacing with Aramaic on aninternational stage. (Aramaic was the former language forinternational diplomacy.) Apparently, this resulted in choosingAramaic-like forms when transliterating from minority Semiticlanguages. While these two reasons could be over-ridden, as we seewith some 8 examples of φεσακ (6 in 2Chr, 1 in Jer, 1 in Neh.). Thepoint of all of this is that σικερα, πασχα, et al, are the standardways of transliterating ηεβρεω words into Greek during Second Templetimes.So for those celebrating the feast tonight –Hag sameaH (=εορθ καλη, εορθ χαρασ, ευφραινου εν θ εορθ του πασχα)RandallRandall Buthrandallbuth at gmail.comwww.biblicalulpan.org– Randall Buth, PhDwww.biblicalulpan.orgχάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείηשלום לכם וברכותybitan at mscc.huji.ac.ilrandallbuth at gmail.com

[] Easter question[] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew

[] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Mon Apr 2 11:20:49 εδτ 2007

[] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew [] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew On Apr 2, 2007, at 10:45 αμ, Randall Buth wrote:> There is a technical point on transliteration from Hebrew to Greek> that is worth further discussion for those focussing on ντ Greek.> > Pietersma εγραψε>> If you you check the first passover account in Ex 12, you will see >> that> the λχχ has πασχα (v.11), a transcription of the Aramaic term, rather> than the Hebrew. This probably means that when the Hebrew Pentateuch> was translated into Greek, Alexandrian Jews referred to the festival by> that name.>> > Al is correct is suggesting that πασχα reflects a form that was> probably already current in Alexandria in Greek in the Jewish> community that produced the λχχ.> > However, it should be pointed out that the λχχ translator was> transliterating the Hebrew word at Ex 12:11. That is, a Hebrew source> “pesaH” produced a form πασχα in Greek at Ex 12:11. (reasons to be> discussed below). [[There is no indication that the λχχ translator was> working from an Aramaic text, in fact there is no indication that an> Aramaic text of the Torah even existed in pre-Christian times. the Old> Greek does mention the use of an Aramaic text when translating Job. If> our Aramaic Job from Qumran is any indication, that text probably came> from Mesopotamia in the East.]]We are now perhaps going into territory beyond the scope of this list. My point regarding πασξα in Exodus was neither that the Greek text worked from an Aramaic original nor that πασξα was a transliteration, but rather Hebrew πεσαξ in the source text triggered the term used by Egyptians Jews in common parlance for the festival in question, namely, πασξα. πασξα, however, happens to be Aramaic, not Hebrew (as determinative final α indicates). The phenomenon as such —— and σικερα belongs here too—— testifies to the extensive influence of the lingua franca of the Persian period (Aramaic) among Jews as well as others. The same influence is underscored by the fact that the Greek translators of the λχχ often ‘Aramaized’ their Hebrew source, i.e. ascribing Aramaic meanings to Hebrew words and morphemes.Al> > Why is this important? Because one needs to be able to correctly go in> the other direction. If a Greek text was found with a form πασχα,> along with other signals of translation from a Semitic source, would> someone declare that the source text was Aramaic and could not be> Hebrew? This very logic, mistaken, turns up in ντ studies frequently,> like at Luke 1:15 where we find σικερα. σικερα is ‘beer’ and is a> transliteration from ηεβρεω “shexar” found in the λχχ (Lv 10:9, Nu> 6:3, 28:7, Dt 14:26, 29:5). Hebrew shexar is always rendered sikera in> the Tora, though sometimes translated μεθυσμα in other books (1Sm> 1:15, Mic 2:11. οινοσ Ps 69:13=68:13, Prov 31:4, μεθη Prov 20:1, 31:6,> )> The question as to why Hebrew shexar would be transliterated σικερα in> Greek is an interesting question in its own right. That shexar means> beer is probable because of Akkadian and archaeology. But why> transliterate instead of using a Greek word for beer?> > Well — have you ever tried to find the Greek word for beer? this is> not an easy endeavor. Modern Greeks cannot help because they use> ‘bira’. Papyri come to the rescue. ι‘ve run accross ζυθοσ in ancient> papyri though haven’t checked where this occurs in literary texts.> apparently, ζυθοσ was not a high-class or popular drink in Greek> society. In any case the λχχ translators preferred transliteration, or> a general translation ‘alcoholic drink/wine’.> So finally, why would the form σικερα be chosen in Greek when working> from a Hebrew text? Probably two reasons, 1) a form of a word ending> in ‘a’ is more euphonic in Greek and matches the vowel of a regular> neuter ending found in –μα words, πνευμα, φρονημα ktl. 2) From the> Black Sea to Egypt, Greek was interfacing with Aramaic on an> international stage. (Aramaic was the former language for> international diplomacy.) Apparently, this resulted in choosing> Aramaic-like forms when transliterating from minority Semitic> languages. While these two reasons could be over-ridden, as we see> with some 8 examples of φεσακ (6 in 2Chr, 1 in Jer, 1 in Neh.). The> point of all of this is that σικερα, πασχα, et al, are the standard> ways of transliterating ηεβρεω words into Greek during Second Temple> times.> > So for those celebrating the feast tonight —> Hag sameaH (=εορθ καλη, εορθ χαρασ, ευφραινου εν θ εορθ του πασχα)> Randall> > Randall Buth> randallbuth at gmail.com> www.biblicalulpan.org> > > — > Randall Buth, PhD> www.biblicalulpan.org> χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείη> שלום לכם וברכות> ybitan at mscc.huji.ac.il> randallbuth at gmail.com> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> —Albert Pietersma21 Cross Street,Weston ον Canada M9N 2B8Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.caHomepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm

[] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew[] πασχα and σικερα –transliteration from Hebrew

[] πασξα Ken Penner ken.penner at acadiau.ca
Tue Apr 3 08:18:34 εδτ 2007

[] Easter question [] πασξα What evidence do we have that πασξα is “an exact transliteration of the **Aramaic** word for ‘Passover’ (_paskha_);”? ι see problems with this supposition.We have evidence that the first vowel of the Aramaic word for passover is ι rather than α, judging by earliest vocalized Aramaic instance of ψχ (Targums Onkelos and Jonathan both have pisxa’ ) and the full orthography of Pesikta de Rav Kahana, which has πυσχη.KenKen μ. Penner, Ph.δ. (McMaster)Acadia/Greek&HebrewGreek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software: http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flashfrjsilver at optonline.net wrote:> πασξα is not a natively Greek word. It’s an exact > transliteration of the **Aramaic** word for ‘Passover’ > (_paskha_); that’s the word Jesus used in ordinary speech, > and it’s what the ντ uses. In Hebrew, ‘Passover’ is _pesakh_

[] Easter question[] πασξα

[] πασξα Randall Buth randallbuth at gmail.com
Tue Apr 3 10:17:47 εδτ 2007

[] Rev 7:4 [] Rev 7:4 Ken ηρωθσε> What evidence do we have that πασξα is “an exact transliteration of the **Aramaic** word for ‘Passover’ (_paskha_);”? ι see problems with this supposition.> > We have evidence that the first vowel of the Aramaic word for passover is ι rather than α, judging> by earliest vocalized Aramaic instance of ψχ (Targums Onkelos and Jonathan both have> pisxa’ ) and the full orthography of Pesikta de Rav Kahana, which has πυσχη.This is a good point but there are complications that may reflect someof the complications within both Aramaic and Hebrew dialectology.There are not a few words that shift between a possiblyEastern/Massoretic [i] vowel and a Western [a] vowel. for example, wehave names like Miryam//Maryam. And the word ριββονι (Eastern) ‘mylord’ versus ραββουνι (Western). This last word, of course, is foundin our Greek ντ and in Mishna codex Kaufman (Hebrew) and Cairo Genizatargum (Aramaic).One of my basic points is that ντ scholarship simply ignores theHebrew side of the background. Notice the statement in the previousthread: “It’s an exact transliteration of the **Aramaic** word for’Passover’ (_paskha_) ” That is a strange statement when it isattested as a transliteration of the **Hebrew** word for Passover inthe λχχ.Two things must be remembered:1) Linguistically, Hebrew must be included as a possible backgroundof an attestation of σικερα or πασχα or σαββατα.a. σικερα could be naturally used in Greek by someone working from aHEBREW text. This is attestd in the λχχ.b. σικερα might be naturally used in Greek by someone working from anAramaic text, though ι don’t have any exmaples to verify this. (Thetargumim even tended to avoid shexar, no doubt from a complex matrixof reasons that we must guess at.)c. σικερα might be naturally used in Greek by someone writing inGreek. Proof on this is sometimes difficult, though.2. It is methodologically flawed to cite a Greek form with “a”, e.g.σαββατα to impreach an ancient author’s claim that he is writing aHebrew word εβραικοσ/εβραιστι (in Greek). Josephus was conscious ofthe distinction of Hebrew εβραικοσ and Aramaic συριακοσ and correctlydistinguished them and his language names in his writings as long asmoderns don’t filter these through false formulae (as if expectingJosephus to adhere to their expectation rather than the λχχ‘s).Anyway, while the sociolinguistics of the first century are not thedomain of this list, the meaning and classification of Greek loanwordsin –α and Greek language names would seem to be a Greek languagequestion.α classic locus of how these can be misread by moderns is αριστευσ 11,which probably deserves a separate thread.EERWSQERandall– Randall Buth, PhDwww.biblicalulpan.orgχάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείηשלום לכם וברכותybitan at mscc.huji.ac.ilrandallbuth at gmail.com

[] Rev 7:4[] Rev 7:4

[] πασξα Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Tue Apr 3 10:51:57 εδτ 2007

[] πασξα [] Easter question Again this isn’t the list for such a discussion. But surely at least as pertinent a question as Ken’s is how to explain the form as a transcription from Hebrew. The reference to BdB §141, which Ken gave earlier, may be adequate for the ντ but it is not for the Septuagint. Randall is correct in noting that the issue is in the first instance a Septuagint issue. That being the case it needs to be put in the context of transcriptions from Semitic in the λχχ.Al (signing off on this issue)On Apr 3, 2007, at 8:18 αμ, Ken Penner wrote:> What evidence do we have that πασξα is “an exact transliteration of > the **Aramaic** word for ‘Passover’ (_paskha_);”? ι see problems with > this supposition.> > We have evidence that the first vowel of the Aramaic word for passover > is ι rather than α, judging by earliest vocalized Aramaic instance of > ψχ (Targums Onkelos and Jonathan both have pisxa’ ) and the full > orthography of Pesikta de Rav Kahana, which has πυσχη.> > Ken> > Ken μ. Penner, Ph.δ. (McMaster)> Acadia/Greek&Hebrew> Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic vocabulary memorization software:> http://purl.org/net/kmpenner/flash> > frjsilver at optonline.net wrote:> >> πασξα is not a natively Greek word. It’s an exact>> transliteration of the **Aramaic** word for ‘Passover’>> (_paskha_); that’s the word Jesus used in ordinary speech,>> and it’s what the ντ uses. In Hebrew, ‘Passover’ is _pesakh_> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > —Albert Pietersma21 Cross Street,Weston ον Canada M9N 2B8Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.caHomepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm

[] πασξα[] Easter question