John 3:16

[] John 3:16 “so” Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Tue Dec 15 17:54:15 EST 2009

 

[] Capital theta in John 1:18? [] John 3:16 “so” Dear list,I have been studying a controversy in John 3:16:*John 3:16* οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.hOUTWS GAP HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONOGENH EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL’ ECHi ZWHN AIWNION.The controversy concerns the force of hOUTWS and then hWSTE. The lexicons present, though not necessarily for this verse, the claim that the words together can imply an intensive idea where hOUTWS is “so” (“so much”) and hWSTE is “that.” The use of “so” and “that” is, of course, the traditional rendering of the verse. Some recent commentaries, papers, and translations are saying that hOUTWS should be translated “in this way,” with hWSTE possibly rendered as “and so.”This particular construction does not appear elsewhere in the Greek NT from what I have read, or really in the LXX either. So recourse is made to writers like Josephus, Philo, Demosthenes, and Epictetus to clarify the usage. The Loeb Classical Library often translates the construction with an intensive sense, but a paper I just read differed with LCL, claiming that in each case hOUTWS looked back to a previous context and had the meaning “in this way,” rather than being an intensive “so.”Is anyone familiar with this issue sufficiently to have an opinion about it?By the way, please tell me if the Greek text is legible as Greek. I exported John 3:16 from Bibleworks to Word and transferred it from Word to the emailer Thunderbird. It still looks Greek to me but perhaps not to others.Thank you.Yours,Harold Holmyard

 

[] Capital theta in John 1:18?[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Steve Runge srunge at logos.com
Tue Dec 15 19:32:28 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” Harold,I would suggest breaking the problem down into smaller components. The first controversy regards which way hOUTWS refers, whether it is anaphoric or cataphoric. The answer to this question will influence the sense you assign it, typically either manner or degree. In reading the literature on this issue, cases are made for both backward- and forward-pointing reference. If it is backward, the antecedent would be the lifting up of the Son of Man as the demonstration of God’s love. The forward-pointing alternative would view the hWSTE clause as the referent. I played and replayed the scenarios. Forward-pointing hOUTWS references are typically resolved in: 1. a quotation (e.g. Mt 2:5 referring to v. 6, or Mt. 6:9); 2. a subordinate clause introduced by hOTI (e.g. Mk 4:26, Lk 19:31), hWS (e.g. 1 Cor 4:1; 9:26; Jas 2:12), hINA (e.g. Mt 18:14); 3. an infinitive (e.g. Lk 1:25). I have not found another instance where a cataphoric hOUTWS reference is resolved by hWSTE. It might could happen, but John 3:16 would be the lone token in the GNT. According to my analysis in the Discourse GNT, John 21:21 is the only forward-pointing hOUTWS reference in the gospel other than the potential one in 3:16. There it is simply a general reference to the events that follow where Jesus reveals himself to the disciples after the resurrection. On the basis of the broader usage and that within John’s gospel, I view the forward-pointing reading of hOUTWS in 3:16 as the harder and less likely one.The second part regards the sense of hOUTWS. I understand hOUTWS to be a “pro-adverb” (sorry Carl, know you hate the terms). It is an adverb in that it modifies a verb, and it is a pro-form in that it can stand in the place of a concept like a pronoun. In 3:16, you need to choose your concept that it stands in place of, which in both cases would be a manner, not a degree. Thus I do not think that there is merit to the degree reading, the only sound option is manner. There is nothing in the preceding or following context describing a degree, only two manners: lifting up the Son of Man, and giving his only son. This is my two cents, though I am sure there will be other opinions.Regards,Steven E. RungeScholar-in-ResidenceLogos Bible Software srunge at logos.com www.logos.comwww.ntdiscourse.org—–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Harold HolmyardSent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:54 PMTo: Subject: [] John 3:16 “so”Dear list,I have been studying a controversy in John 3:16:*John 3:16* οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.hOUTWS GAP HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONOGENH EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL’ ECHi ZWHN AIWNION.The controversy concerns the force of hOUTWS and then hWSTE. The lexicons present, though not necessarily for this verse, the claim that the words together can imply an intensive idea where hOUTWS is “so” (“somuch”) and hWSTE is “that.” The use of “so” and “that” is, of course, the traditional rendering of the verse. Some recent commentaries, papers, and translations are saying that hOUTWS should be translated “in this way,” with hWSTE possibly rendered as “and so.”This particular construction does not appear elsewhere in the Greek NT from what I have read, or really in the LXX either. So recourse is made to writers like Josephus, Philo, Demosthenes, and Epictetus to clarify the usage. The Loeb Classical Library often translates the construction with an intensive sense, but a paper I just read differed with LCL, claiming that in each case hOUTWS looked back to a previous context and had the meaning “in this way,” rather than being an intensive “so.”Is anyone familiar with this issue sufficiently to have an opinion about it?By the way, please tell me if the Greek text is legible as Greek. I exported John 3:16 from Bibleworks to Word and transferred it from Word to the emailer Thunderbird. It still looks Greek to me but perhaps not to others.Thank you.Yours,Harold Holmyard— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” David McKay davidmckay52 at gmail.com
Tue Dec 15 20:14:05 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” Lots of big words here, Steve.Could you tell us how you think it should be translated, following on fromyour analysis and conclusions, please?David McKay2009/12/16 Steve Runge <srunge at logos.com>> Harold,> > I would suggest breaking the problem down into smaller components. The> first controversy regards which way hOUTWS refers, whether it is anaphoric> or cataphoric. The answer to this question will influence the sense you> assign it, typically either manner or degree. In reading the literature on> this issue, cases are made for both backward- and forward-pointing> reference. If it is backward, the antecedent would be the lifting up of the> Son of Man as the demonstration of God’s love. The forward-pointing> alternative would view the hWSTE clause as the referent.> > I played and replayed the scenarios. Forward-pointing hOUTWS references are> typically resolved in:> 1. a quotation (e.g. Mt 2:5 referring to v. 6, or Mt. 6:9);> 2. a subordinate clause introduced by hOTI (e.g. Mk 4:26, Lk> 19:31), hWS (e.g. 1 Cor 4:1; 9:26; Jas 2:12), hINA (e.g. Mt 18:14);> 3. an infinitive (e.g. Lk 1:25).> I have not found another instance where a cataphoric hOUTWS reference is> resolved by hWSTE. It might could happen, but John 3:16 would be the lone> token in the GNT.> > According to my analysis in the Discourse GNT, John 21:21 is the only> forward-pointing hOUTWS reference in the gospel other than the potential one> in 3:16. There it is simply a general reference to the events that follow> where Jesus reveals himself to the disciples after the resurrection. On the> basis of the broader usage and that within John’s gospel, I view the> forward-pointing reading of hOUTWS in 3:16 as the harder and less likely> one.> > The second part regards the sense of hOUTWS. I understand hOUTWS to be a> “pro-adverb” (sorry Carl, know you hate the terms). It is an adverb in that> it modifies a verb, and it is a pro-form in that it can stand in the place> of a concept like a pronoun. In 3:16, you need to choose your concept that> it stands in place of, which in both cases would be a manner, not a degree.> Thus I do not think that there is merit to the degree reading, the only> sound option is manner. There is nothing in the preceding or following> context describing a degree, only two manners: lifting up the Son of Man,> and giving his only son.> > This is my two cents, though I am sure there will be other opinions.> > Regards,> > Steven E. Runge> Scholar-in-Residence> Logos Bible Software> srunge at logos.com> www.logos.com> www.ntdiscourse.org> > —–Original Message—–> From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:> -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Harold Holmyard> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:54 PM> To: > Subject: [] John 3:16 “so”> > Dear list,> I have been studying a controversy in John 3:16:> > *> > John 3:16* οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν> μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν> αἰώνιον.> > hOUTWS GAP HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONOGENH> EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL’ ECHi ZWHN AIWNION.> > The controversy concerns the force of hOUTWS and then hWSTE. The lexicons> present, though not necessarily for this verse, the claim that the words> together can imply an intensive idea where hOUTWS is “so” (“so> much”) and hWSTE is “that.” The use of “so” and “that” is, of course, the> traditional rendering of the verse. Some recent commentaries, papers, and> translations are saying that hOUTWS should be translated “in this way,” with> hWSTE possibly rendered as “and so.”> > This particular construction does not appear elsewhere in the Greek NT from> what I have read, or really in the LXX either. So recourse is made to> writers like Josephus, Philo, Demosthenes, and Epictetus to clarify the> usage. The Loeb Classical Library often translates the construction with an> intensive sense, but a paper I just read differed with LCL, claiming that in> each case hOUTWS looked back to a previous context and had the meaning “in> this way,” rather than being an intensive “so.”> > Is anyone familiar with this issue sufficiently to have an opinion about> it?> > By the way, please tell me if the Greek text is legible as Greek. I> exported John 3:16 from Bibleworks to Word and transferred it from Word to> the emailer Thunderbird. It still looks Greek to me but perhaps not to> others.> > Thank you.> > Yours,> Harold Holmyard> > > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> <http://www.ibiblio.org/%0A> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> — www.gontroppo.blogspot.com

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Tue Dec 15 20:51:07 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” Hi, David,> Lots of big words here, Steve.> Could you tell us how you think it should be translated, following on from> your analysis and conclusions, please?> David McKay> The way it is translated by several major translations trying to update the traditional rendering is as follows:CSB John 3:16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.GWN John 3:16 God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.NET John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.NJB John 3:16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.However, see the NLT:NLT John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.HH: And the NET translation notes argue that the verse can describe both intensity and manner of love, supposedly in John’s style of using double meanings.Yours,Harold Holmyard

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” David McKay davidmckay52 at gmail.com
Tue Dec 15 20:59:51 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” Thanks Harold.But what I want to know is what Steve thinks is the best rendering, becauseI can’t follow his argument, due to his use of jargon words I don’tunderstand.Can you or he tell me if he favours one of the translations you’ve givenbelow, based on his argument, please?I am a bear of very little brain, as Winnie the Pooh would say.David McKay

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Tue Dec 15 21:21:52 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” David,I think he would accept any of the translations I gave you. Let me go through his terms.> Harold,> > I would suggest breaking the problem down into smaller components. The first controversy regards which way hOUTWS refers, whether it is anaphoric or cataphoric. Cataphoric = forward-pointing (pointing to something further on in the sentence)of or relating to cataphora; /especially/ *:* being a word or phrase (as a pronoun) that takes its reference from a following word or phrase (as /her/ in /before her Jane saw nothing but desert/) — compare anaphoricAnaphoric = backward-pointing (referring to something earlier in the writing)> The answer to this question will influence the sense you assign it, typically either manner or degree. In reading the literature on this issue, cases are made for both backward- and forward-pointing reference. If it is backward, the antecedent would be the lifting up of the Son of Man as the demonstration of God’s love. The forward-pointing alternative would view the hWSTE clause as the referent. > > I played and replayed the scenarios. Forward-pointing hOUTWS references are typically resolved in: > 1. a quotation (e.g. Mt 2:5 referring to v. 6, or Mt. 6:9); > 2. a subordinate clause introduced by hOTI (e.g. Mk 4:26, Lk 19:31), hWS (e.g. 1 Cor 4:1; 9:26; Jas 2:12), hINA (e.g. Mt 18:14); > 3. an infinitive (e.g. Lk 1:25). > I have not found another instance where a cataphoric hOUTWS reference is resolved by hWSTE. It might could happen, but John 3:16 would be the lone token in the GNT. > HH: Right, it would be a lone instance in the GNT where a cataphoric hOUTWS reference is resolved by hWSTE, but arguments are given for it occurring in other literature.> According to my analysis in the Discourse GNT, John 21:21 is the only forward-pointing hOUTWS reference in the gospel other than the potential one in 3:16. There it is simply a general reference to the events that follow where Jesus reveals himself to the disciples after the resurrection. On the basis of the broader usage and that within John’s gospel, I view the forward-pointing reading of hOUTWS in 3:16 as the harder and less likely one.> HH: Since most references of hOUTWS are backward-looking in John, the forward-looking theory for John 3:16 seems less likely.> The second part regards the sense of hOUTWS. I understand hOUTWS to be a “pro-adverb” (sorry Carl, know you hate the terms). It is an adverb in that it modifies a verb, and it is a pro-form in that it can stand in the place of a concept like a pronoun. In 3:16, you need to choose your concept that it stands in place of, which in both cases would be a manner, not a degree. Thus I do not think that there is merit to the degree reading, the only sound option is manner. There is nothing in the preceding or following context describing a degree, only two manners: lifting up the Son of Man, and giving his only son. > > This is my two cents, though I am sure there will be other opinions.> HH: I have read an argument like this based on the elements of the word hOUTWS, which is supposedly based on hOUTOS (“this”) plus WS (“as, like”). So this is like something else, the other thing being what hOUTWS can substitute for or represent.Yours,Harold Holmyard

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Steve Runge srunge at logos.com
Tue Dec 15 21:45:23 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” David and Harold,If you were going to take hOUTWS as referring ahead to the hWSTE clause,the use of the colon in the CSB, GWN, NET and NJB all reflect theforward-pointing interpretation. Rendering hOUTWS as “this way”indicates they understand it as describing manner rather than degree.The “so much” of the NLT indicates understanding it as degree. If youwanted to capture the fronting of hOUTWS for emphasis in Greek, youwould end up with something like:”For it was *in this way* that God loved the word: He gave his one andonly son.” This is a bit stilted, and the asterisk indicates where the primarystress of the reading would be placed. It is not emphasized because itis important in and of itself, but because of what it points ahead to.The point of using such a forward-pointing reference is to drawattention to the hWSTE clause. It is a rhetorical device comparable tome saying “*Here’s* my translation: “For in this….” “Here” is not themost important word, my translation is. But as I said in the last post,I do not think that the forward-pointing reading is the most likely. Onto plan B.I think the most likely reading is to see hOUTWS referring back to vv.14-15.”Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, in this/the sameway must the Son of Man be lifted up. For in this way God loved theworld, so that He gave his one and only Son…”Understood in this way, the hOUTWS is reiterating the content of vv.14-15 that stresses Jesus being lifted up by comparison to the serpentin the wilderness, which is reiterated by hOUTWS. Note that thetranslation looks really similar, the primary difference has to do withthe reference of hOUTWS, whether forward or backward. I gotta run my daughter to youth group, hope this will answer thequestion.Steve Runge—–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org[mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Harold HolmyardSent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 5:51 PMCc: Subject: Re: [] John 3:16 “so”Hi, David,> Lots of big words here, Steve.> Could you tell us how you think it should be translated, following on > from your analysis and conclusions, please?> David McKay> The way it is translated by several major translations trying to updatethe traditional rendering is as follows:CSB John 3:16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One andOnly Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but haveeternal life.GWN John 3:16 God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son sothat everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternallife.NET John 3:16 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his oneand only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish buthave eternal life.NJB John 3:16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his onlySon, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may haveeternal life.However, see the NLT:NLT John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one andonly Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but haveeternal life.HH: And the NET translation notes argue that the verse can describe bothintensity and manner of love, supposedly in John’s style of using doublemeanings.Yours,Harold Holmyard— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Tue Dec 15 22:06:08 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” Steve,> > I think the most likely reading is to see hOUTWS referring back to vv.> 14-15.> > “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, in this/the same> way must the Son of Man be lifted up. For in this way God loved the> world, so that He gave his one and only Son…”> > Understood in this way, the hOUTWS is reiterating the content of vv.> 14-15 that stresses Jesus being lifted up by comparison to the serpent> in the wilderness, which is reiterated by hOUTWS. Note that the> translation looks really similar, the primary difference has to do with> the reference of hOUTWS, whether forward or backward. > > I gotta run my daughter to youth group, hope this will answer the> question.> HH: Thanks. Yes, this is the way that the article I read goes about interpreting the verse. It was written by Robert Gundry and someone else and published in /Novum Testamentum/ in the 1999 volume, I think in the first issue of the year. But, Steve, you have not yet handled the hWSTE clause in translation. How would you handle it?HH: And of course the issue still remains whether the Loeb Classical Library and other sources might be correct in handling hOUTWS . . . hWSTE in an intensive way in extra-biblical literature.Yours,Harold Holmyard

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 15 22:08:29 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλʼ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. hOUTWS GAR HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONGENH EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL’ EXHi ZWHN AIWNION While I tend to agree with Steve regarding the meaning of the passage, let me present an opposing witness regarding this usage. 1.1 Ἄμωμον διάνοιαν καὶ ἀδιάκριτον ἐν ὑπομονῇ ἔγνων ὑμᾶς ἔχοντας, οὐ κατὰ χρῆσιν ἀλλὰ κατὰ φύσιν, καθὼς ἐδήλωσέν μοι Πολύβιος ὁ ἐπίσκοπος ὑμῶν, ὃς παρεγένετο θελήματι θεοῦ καὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν Σμύρνῃ, καὶ  ***  οὕτως  μοι συνεχάρη  *** δεδεμένῳ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ***  ὥστε  *** με τὸ πᾶν πλῆθος ὑμῶν ἐν αὐτῷ θεωρῆσαι. (2) ἀποδεξάμενος οὖν τὴν κατὰ θεὸν εὔνοιαν διʼ αὐτοῦ, ἐδόξασα εὑρὼν ὑμᾶς, ὡς ἔγνων, μιμητὰς ὄντας θεοῦ. 1.1 AMWMON DIANOIAN KAI ADIAKRITON EN hUPOMONHi EGNWN hUMAS EXONTAS OU KATA KRHSIN ALLA KATA FUSIN, KAQWS EDHLWSEN MOI POLUBIOS hO EPISKOPOS hUMWN, hOS PAREGENETO QELHMATI IHSOU XRISTOU EN SMURNHi, KAI hOUTWS MOI SUNEXARH DEDEMENWi EN XRISTWi IHSOU, hWSTE ME TO PAN PLHQOS hUMWN EN AUTWi QEWRHSAI. (2) APODECAMENOS OUN THN KATA QEON EUNOIAN DI’ AUTOU, EDOCASA hEURWN hUMAS, hWS EGNWN, MIMHTAS ONTAS QEOU. Holmes, M. W. (1999). The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English translations (Updated ed.) (158). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books. I’ll take pity on some of the littler Greeks and provide Holmes’ translation as well. 1. I know that you have a disposition that is blameless and unwavering in patient endurance, not from habit but by nature, inasmuch as Polybius your bishop informed me when, by the will of God and Jesus Christ, he visited me in Smyrna; *** so heartily did he rejoice with me  ***, a prisoner in Christ Jesus, ***  that  *** in him I saw your entire congregation. (2) Having received, therefore, your godly good will through him, I praised God when I found out that you were, as I had learned, imitators of God. Holmes, M. W. (1999). The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English translations (Updated ed.) (159). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Steve Runge <srunge at logos.com>To: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>; < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Tue, December 15, 2009 7:32:28 PMSubject: Re: [] John 3:16 “so”Harold,I would suggest breaking the problem down into smaller components. The first controversy regards which way hOUTWS refers, whether it is anaphoric or cataphoric. The answer to this question will influence the sense you assign it, typically either manner or degree. In reading the literature on this issue, cases are made for both backward- and forward-pointing reference. If it is backward, the antecedent would be the lifting up of the Son of Man as the demonstration of God’s love. The forward-pointing alternative would view the hWSTE clause as the referent. I played and replayed the scenarios. Forward-pointing hOUTWS references are typically resolved in:     1.  a quotation (e.g. Mt 2:5 referring to v. 6, or Mt. 6:9);     2.  a subordinate clause introduced by hOTI (e.g. Mk 4:26, Lk 19:31), hWS (e.g. 1 Cor 4:1; 9:26; Jas 2:12), hINA (e.g. Mt 18:14);     3.  an infinitive (e.g. Lk 1:25). I have not found another instance where a cataphoric hOUTWS reference is resolved by hWSTE. It might could happen, but John 3:16 would be the lone token in the GNT. According to my analysis in the Discourse GNT, John 21:21 is the only forward-pointing hOUTWS reference in the gospel other than the potential one in 3:16. There it is simply a general reference to the events that follow where Jesus reveals himself to the disciples after the resurrection. On the basis of the broader usage and that within John’s gospel, I view the forward-pointing reading of hOUTWS in 3:16 as the harder and less likely one.The second part regards the sense of hOUTWS. I understand hOUTWS to be a “pro-adverb” (sorry Carl, know you hate the terms). It is an adverb in that it modifies a verb, and it is a pro-form in that it can stand in the place of a concept like a pronoun. In 3:16, you need to choose your concept that it stands in place of, which in both cases would be a manner, not a degree. Thus I do not think that there is merit to the degree reading, the only sound option is manner. There is nothing in the preceding or following context describing a degree, only two manners: lifting up the Son of Man, and giving his only son. This is my two cents, though I am sure there will be other opinions.Regards,Steven E. RungeScholar-in-ResidenceLogos Bible Software srunge at logos.com www.logos.comwww.ntdiscourse.org—–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Harold HolmyardSent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 2:54 PMTo: Subject: [] John 3:16 “so”Dear list,I have been studying a controversy in John 3:16:*John 3:16*  οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.hOUTWS GAP HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONOGENH EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL’ ECHi ZWHN AIWNION.The controversy concerns the force of hOUTWS and then hWSTE. The lexicons present, though not necessarily for this verse, the claim that the words together can imply an intensive idea where hOUTWS is “so” (“somuch”) and hWSTE is “that.” The use of “so” and “that” is, of course, the traditional rendering of the verse. Some recent commentaries, papers, and translations are saying that hOUTWS should be translated “in this way,” with hWSTE possibly rendered as “and so.”This particular construction does not appear elsewhere in the Greek NT from what I have read, or really in the LXX either. So recourse is made to writers like Josephus, Philo, Demosthenes, and Epictetus to clarify the usage. The Loeb Classical Library often translates the construction with an intensive sense, but a paper I just read differed with LCL, claiming that in each case hOUTWS looked back to a previous context and had the meaning “in this way,” rather than being an intensive “so.”Is anyone familiar with this issue sufficiently to have an opinion about it?By the way, please tell me if the Greek text is legible as Greek. I exported John 3:16 from Bibleworks to Word and transferred it from Word to the emailer Thunderbird. It still looks Greek to me but perhaps not to others.Thank you.Yours,Harold Holmyard— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Wed Dec 16 00:05:10 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] Wanted, Extensive Greek Word List —– Original Message —– From: “Steve Runge” <srunge at logos.com>To: “Harold Holmyard” <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>; “” < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: 16. december 2009 03:32Subject: Re: [] John 3:16 “so”> Harold,> > I would suggest breaking the problem down into smaller components. The first > controversy regards which way hOUTWS refers, whether it is anaphoric or > cataphoric. The answer to this question will influence the sense you assign > it, typically either manner or degree. In reading the literature on this > issue, cases are made for both backward- and forward-pointing reference. If it > is backward, the antecedent would be the lifting up of the Son of Man as the > demonstration of God’s love. The forward-pointing alternative would view the > hWSTE clause as the referent.> > I played and replayed the scenarios. Forward-pointing hOUTWS references are > typically resolved in:> 1. a quotation (e.g. Mt 2:5 referring to v. 6, or Mt. 6:9);> 2. a subordinate clause introduced by hOTI (e.g. Mk 4:26, Lk 19:31), hWS > (e.g. 1 Cor 4:1; 9:26; Jas 2:12), hINA (e.g. Mt 18:14);> 3. an infinitive (e.g. Lk 1:25).> I have not found another instance where a cataphoric hOUTWS reference is > resolved by hWSTE. It might could happen, but John 3:16 would be the lone > token in the GNT.> > According to my analysis in the Discourse GNT, John 21:21 is the only > forward-pointing hOUTWS reference in the gospel other than the potential one > in 3:16. There it is simply a general reference to the events that follow > where Jesus reveals himself to the disciples after the resurrection. On the > basis of the broader usage and that within John’s gospel, I view the > forward-pointing reading of hOUTWS in 3:16 as the harder and less likely one.> > The second part regards the sense of hOUTWS. I understand hOUTWS to be a > “pro-adverb” (sorry Carl, know you hate the terms). It is an adverb in that it > modifies a verb, and it is a pro-form in that it can stand in the place of a > concept like a pronoun. In 3:16, you need to choose your concept that it > stands in place of, which in both cases would be a manner, not a degree. Thus > I do not think that there is merit to the degree reading, the only sound > option is manner. There is nothing in the preceding or following context > describing a degree, only two manners: lifting up the Son of Man, and giving > his only son.> > This is my two cents, though I am sure there will be other opinions.This has been discussed before, and you will find some interesting posts on it from June 2004 under the same heading John 3:16.What I have so far not seen entering into the discussion is John’s use of hWSTE. Whereas hWSTE was commonly used as a regular result connector in Classical Greek, this has changed in the times of the NT and especially in John. The normal result connector for John is hINA (which can also have other meanings.) John only uses hWSTE in 3:16.Donna Fedukowsky did research on the use of hWSTE which was published as:On The Use Of hwste With The InfinitiveSelected technical articles related to translation, No. 14 (December 1985): 25–32.I can send the article off-list to those who might be interested.She shows that in many cases in the NT, hWSTE indicates an unexpected, surprising result. This suggests that the degree is not derived from hOUTWS in John 3:16, but from hWSTE and the context. hOUTWS indicates the manner, I.e. he showed his love by sending his one and only son.It is these two words in combination enlightened by an understanding of John’s Greek style and language that supports the translation “so much”, which is also a result of a contextual interpretation by those who did not know the special usage of hWSTE in John. (For instance, Living Bible.)Whether hOUTWS points forwards or backwards is related to where the quote ends. I don’t know what Steve says about this, but others who have studied the discourse of John, conclude that v. 15 is the end of Jesus’ speech and v. 16 begins John’s comment, just as is the case with 3:31. I agree with that analysis. Introducing an author comment is one of the functions of GAR, (which is not clear from the English translation “for”).Iver Larsen

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] Wanted, Extensive Greek Word List

[] John 3:16 “so” Steve Runge srunge at logos.com
Wed Dec 16 00:25:12 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” See below… —–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org[mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Harold HolmyardSent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:06 PMTo: Subject: Re: [] John 3:16 “so”Steve,> > I think the most likely reading is to see hOUTWS referring back to vv.> 14-15.> > “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, in this/the same> way must the Son of Man be lifted up. For in this way God loved the > world, so that He gave his one and only Son…”> > Understood in this way, the hOUTWS is reiterating the content of vv.> 14-15 that stresses Jesus being lifted up by comparison to the serpent> in the wilderness, which is reiterated by hOUTWS. Note that the > translation looks really similar, the primary difference has to do > with the reference of hOUTWS, whether forward or backward.> > I gotta run my daughter to youth group, hope this will answer the > question.> HH: Thanks. Yes, this is the way that the article I read goes aboutinterpreting the verse. It was written by Robert Gundry and someone elseand published in /Novum Testamentum/ in the 1999 volume, I think in thefirst issue of the year. But, Steve, you have not yet handled the hWSTEclause in translation. How would you handle it?SER: I had held to a forward-pointing view before reading that article.I found the way they went about their argument by saying what could nothappen unconvincing, but it challenged me to go back and rethink myposition. I failed to find an unambiguous example where hWSTE is thetarget of the reference. In regard to hWSTE, note that the folks that understand hOUTWS ascataphoric typically do not translate hWSTE. The drop it much like onewould normally do with hOTI following a verb of speaking. The treat isas a marker rather than a meaningful particle. If you read hOUTWS as anaphoric, then hWSTE plays a meaningful role byindicating how to relate the subordinate clause to the main clause. Ihave yet to find another case where hWSTE would naturally be dropped.The closest parallel I have found in 1 Cor 5:1, where hWSTE is referringback to TOIAUTH PORNEIA. I will leave the question of broader Koineusage to George and others. My gut feeling is that the KJV has so influenced and popularized thereading of hOUTWS as cataphoric and degree-oriented that one is fightingagainst hundreds of years of tradition. I do not think this is the mostnatural or simplest reading, but it can (and has been) argued. Theanswer to what to do with hWSTE depends on your interpretation of hOUTWSas ana- or cataphoric.SteveHH: And of course the issue still remains whether the Loeb ClassicalLibrary and other sources might be correct in handling hOUTWS . . . hWSTE in an intensive way in extra-biblical literature.Yours,Harold Holmyard— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Wed Dec 16 11:17:55 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” Hi, George,> οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ > ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλʼ ἔχῃ ζωὴν > αἰώνιον. > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1> > > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1> > hOUTWS GAR HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONGENH > EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL’ EXHi ZWHN AIWNION> > While I tend to agree with Steve regarding the meaning of the passage, > let me present an opposing witness regarding this usage.> > > 1.1 Ἄμωμον διάνοιαν καὶ ἀδιάκριτον ἐν ὑπομονῇ ἔγνων ὑμᾶς ἔχοντας, οὐ > κατὰ χρῆσιν ἀλλὰ κατὰ φύσιν, καθὼς ἐδήλωσέν μοι Πολύβιος ὁ ἐπίσκοπος > ὑμῶν, ὃς παρεγένετο θελήματι θεοῦ καὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν Σμύρνῃ, > καὶ *** οὕτως μοι συνεχάρη *** δεδεμένῳ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, *** > ὥστε *** με τὸ πᾶν πλῆθος ὑμῶν ἐν αὐτῷ θεωρῆσαι. (2) ἀποδεξάμενος > οὖν τὴν κατὰ θεὸν εὔνοιαν διʼ αὐτοῦ, ἐδόξασα εὑρὼν ὑμᾶς, ὡς ἔγνων, > μιμητὰς ὄντας θεοῦ.> > 1.1 AMWMON DIANOIAN KAI ADIAKRITON EN hUPOMONHi EGNWN hUMAS EXONTAS OU > KATA KRHSIN ALLA KATA FUSIN, KAQWS EDHLWSEN MOI POLUBIOS hO EPISKOPOS > hUMWN, hOS PAREGENETO QELHMATI IHSOU XRISTOU EN SMURNHi, KAI hOUTWS > MOI SUNEXARH DEDEMENWi EN XRISTWi IHSOU, hWSTE ME TO PAN PLHQOS hUMWN > EN AUTWi QEWRHSAI. (2) APODECAMENOS OUN THN KATA QEON EUNOIAN DI’ > AUTOU, EDOCASA hEURWN hUMAS, hWS EGNWN, MIMHTAS ONTAS QEOU.> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1> > > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1> > Holmes, M. W. (1999). /The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English > translations/ (Updated ed.) (158). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.> > > > I’ll take pity on some of the littler Greeks and provide Holmes’ > translation as well.> > > > *1. *I know that you have a disposition that is blameless and > unwavering in patient endurance, not from habit but by nature, > inasmuch as Polybius your bishop informed me when, by the will of God > and Jesus Christ, he visited me in Smyrna; *** so heartily did he > rejoice with me ***, a prisoner in Christ Jesus, *** that *** in > him I saw your entire congregation. (2) Having received, therefore, > your godly good will through him, I praised God when I found out that > you were, as I had learned, imitators of God.> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1> > > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1> > Holmes, M. W. (1999). /The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English > translations/ (Updated ed.) (159). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.> HH: Thank you for supplying this passage, George, with both the Greek and the English. This is Ignatius’ /Epistle to the Trallians/, at the start of the first chapter, but it raises the issues that appear in John 3:16: is the author pointing backward or forward with hOUTWS? The first line is addressed to the Trallians as a group.HH: Really Robert Gundry’s article (/Novum Testamentum/, 1999) was trying to break down the paradigm whereby such passages have been translated as above, since he presents many similar passages to argue that a preceding context shows that hOUTWS is looking backward instead of forward. He may be mistaken. I have not studied all the passages. But in this passage, I can see what he might say.HH: First there is mention of the admirable qualities of the Trallians. Then there is mention of Polybius, who was their overseer and had noted these qualities about the Trallians to Ignatius (so Polybius was aware of their significance). Then Ignatius relates that Polybius “hOUTWS rejoiced together with me, bound in Jesus Christ, hWSTE I beheld the whole multitude of you in him.” To me it looks as though Ignatius is saying that Polybius exhibited the very qualities that he had borne witness to as characteristic of the Trallians, a blameless mind that was unwavering in patient endurance. The Trallians were blameless and unwavering in patient endurance in the persecution that they faced for their confession of faith in Christ Jesus. Polybius evidently showed these same qualities by his sympathy for Ignatius, who in the context, was bound as a Christian and was facing martyrdom.HH: Polybius’ rejoicing together with Ignatius was the outgrowth of a quality of other-worldly endurance of suffering for Christ’s sake that marked the Trallian church as a whole and that permitted a perspective of joy with respect to Ignatius’ bondage. Ignatius saw the whole Trallian church in Polybius because he exhibited the same qualities that Polybius admired in his congregation of Trallians. hOUTWS can look backward to the description of the Trallians that Ignatius gives at the start of the letter. Ignatius seems to be saying that Polybius’ rejoicing with him in his bondage was of such a manner that it reflected the character of the entire church as Ignatius had just described it.HH: The argument for HOUTWS looking backward is that Polybius’ rejoicing together with Ignatius in his bondage was due to the fact that he had a blameless mind in Christ and was unwavering in patient endurance in his own life. Thus he was ready to rejoice with Ignatius in what Ignatius had to patiently endure despite being blameless.Yours,Harold Holmyard

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 16 11:32:26 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” After all of your verbiage, if I recall correctly, the original question you posed was whether the ὥστε hWSTE in Jn 3.16 indicated degree or manner.  In the Trallians passage Ignatius seems to be using it in the sense of degree though I continue to think that in Jn 3.16 it is used as “manner.” georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 11:17:55 AMSubject: Re: [] John 3:16 “so”Hi, George,> οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ > ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλʼ ἔχῃ ζωὴν > αἰώνιον. > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1> > > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1> > hOUTWS GAR HGAPHSEN hO QEOS TON KOSMON, hWSTE TON hUION TON MONGENH > EDWKEN, hINA PAS hO PISTEUWN EIS AUTON MH APOLHTAI ALL’ EXHi ZWHN AIWNION>  > While I tend to agree with Steve regarding the meaning of the passage, > let me present an opposing witness regarding this usage.>  >  > 1.1 Ἄμωμον διάνοιαν καὶ ἀδιάκριτον ἐν ὑπομονῇ ἔγνων ὑμᾶς ἔχοντας, οὐ > κατὰ χρῆσιν ἀλλὰ κατὰ φύσιν, καθὼς ἐδήλωσέν μοι Πολύβιος ὁ ἐπίσκοπος > ὑμῶν, ὃς παρεγένετο θελήματι θεοῦ καὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐν Σμύρνῃ, > καὶ  ***  οὕτως  μοι συνεχάρη  *** δεδεμένῳ ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ, ***  > ὥστε  *** με τὸ πᾶν πλῆθος ὑμῶν ἐν αὐτῷ θεωρῆσαι. (2) ἀποδεξάμενος > οὖν τὴν κατὰ θεὸν εὔνοιαν διʼ αὐτοῦ, ἐδόξασα εὑρὼν ὑμᾶς, ὡς ἔγνων, > μιμητὰς ὄντας θεοῦ.>  > 1.1 AMWMON DIANOIAN KAI ADIAKRITON EN hUPOMONHi EGNWN hUMAS EXONTAS OU > KATA KRHSIN ALLA KATA FUSIN, KAQWS EDHLWSEN MOI POLUBIOS hO EPISKOPOS > hUMWN, hOS PAREGENETO QELHMATI IHSOU XRISTOU EN SMURNHi, KAI hOUTWS > MOI SUNEXARH DEDEMENWi EN XRISTWi IHSOU, hWSTE ME TO PAN PLHQOS hUMWN > EN AUTWi QEWRHSAI. (2) APODECAMENOS OUN THN KATA QEON EUNOIAN DI’ > AUTOU, EDOCASA hEURWN hUMAS, hWS EGNWN, MIMHTAS ONTAS QEOU.> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1> > > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1> > Holmes, M. W. (1999). /The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English > translations/ (Updated ed.) (158). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.> >  > > I’ll take pity on some of the littler Greeks and provide Holmes’ > translation as well.> >  > > *1. *I know that you have a disposition that is blameless and > unwavering in patient endurance, not from habit but by nature, > inasmuch as Polybius your bishop informed me when, by the will of God > and Jesus Christ, he visited me in Smyrna; *** so heartily did he > rejoice with me  ***, a prisoner in Christ Jesus, ***  that  *** in > him I saw your entire congregation. (2) Having received, therefore, > your godly good will through him, I praised God when I found out that > you were, as I had learned, imitators of God.> <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftn1> > > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/dc/blank.html?bn=240.3&.intl=us&.lang=en-US#_ftnref1> > Holmes, M. W. (1999). /The Apostolic Fathers : Greek texts and English > translations/ (Updated ed.) (159). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.> HH: Thank you for supplying this passage, George, with both the Greek and the English. This is Ignatius’ /Epistle to the Trallians/, at the start of the first chapter, but it raises the issues that appear in John 3:16:  is the author pointing backward or forward with hOUTWS? The first line is addressed to the Trallians as a group.HH: Really Robert Gundry’s article (/Novum Testamentum/, 1999) was trying to break down the paradigm whereby such passages have been translated as above, since he presents many similar passages to argue that a preceding context shows that hOUTWS is looking backward instead of forward. He may be mistaken. I have not studied all the passages. But in this passage, I can see what he might say.HH: First there is mention of the admirable qualities of the Trallians. Then there is mention of Polybius, who was their overseer and had noted these qualities about the Trallians to Ignatius (so Polybius was aware of their significance). Then Ignatius relates that Polybius “hOUTWS rejoiced together with me, bound in Jesus Christ, hWSTE I beheld the whole multitude of you in him.” To me it looks as though Ignatius is saying that Polybius exhibited the very qualities that he had borne witness to as characteristic of the Trallians, a blameless mind that was unwavering in patient endurance. The Trallians were blameless and unwavering in patient endurance in the persecution that they faced for their confession of faith in Christ Jesus. Polybius evidently showed these same qualities by his sympathy for Ignatius, who in the context, was bound as a Christian and was facing martyrdom.HH: Polybius’ rejoicing together with Ignatius was the outgrowth of a quality of other-worldly endurance of suffering for Christ’s sake that marked the Trallian church as a whole and that permitted a perspective of joy with respect to Ignatius’ bondage. Ignatius saw the whole Trallian church in Polybius because he exhibited the same qualities that Polybius admired in his congregation of Trallians.  hOUTWS can look backward to the description of the Trallians that Ignatius gives at the start of the letter. Ignatius seems to be saying that Polybius’ rejoicing with him in his bondage was of such a manner that it reflected the character of the entire church as Ignatius had just described it.HH: The argument for HOUTWS looking backward is that Polybius’ rejoicing together with Ignatius in his bondage was due to the fact that he had a blameless mind in Christ and was unwavering in patient endurance in his own life. Thus he was ready to rejoice with Ignatius in what Ignatius had to patiently endure despite being blameless.Yours,Harold Holmyard— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”

[] John 3:16 “so” Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Wed Dec 16 12:02:31 EST 2009

 

[] John 3:16 “so” [] John 3:16 “so” George,> After all of your verbiage, if I recall correctly, the original > question you posed was whether the ὥστε hWSTE in Jn 3.16 indicated > degree or manner. In the Trallians passage Ignatius seems to be using > it in the sense of degree though I continue to think that in Jn 3.16 > it is used as “manner.”HH: You may be right that the usage in the Trallians’ passage indicates degree, but what I was trying to say was that it might indicate manner. That is, Polybius’ rejoicing together with Ignatius occurred “in this way”: a blameless mind that was unwavering in endurance. I’ll give a translation of the text you supplied to reflect that interpretation:> > > 1.1 AMWMON DIANOIAN KAI ADIAKRITON EN hUPOMONHi EGNWN hUMAS EXONTAS OU> > KATA KRHSIN ALLA KATA FUSIN, KAQWS EDHLWSEN MOI POLUBIOS hO EPISKOPOS> > hUMWN, hOS PAREGENETO QELHMATI IHSOU XRISTOU EN SMURNHi, KAI hOUTWS> > MOI SUNEXARH DEDEMENWi EN XRISTWi IHSOU, hWSTE ME TO PAN PLHQOS hUMWN> > EN AUTWi QEWRHSAI. (2) APODECAMENOS OUN THN KATA QEON EUNOIAN DI’> > AUTOU, EDOCASA hEURWN hUMAS, hWS EGNWN, MIMHTAS ONTAS QEOU.I have come to know that you to have a blameless mind and one unwavering in endurance, not according to usage but according to nature, just as Polybius, your overseer, informed me, who came to Smyrna by the will of God and Jesus Christ and in this way rejoiced together with me, bound as I was in Jesus Christ, so that I beheld the whole multitude of you in him. Receiving therefore your godly benevolence through him, I gave glory, finding you, as I have come to know, to be imitators of God.Yours,Harold Holmyard

 

[] John 3:16 “so”[] John 3:16 “so”