[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Yamada Yuki skepuki at gmail.com
Sat Oct 13 21:38:23 εδτ 2007
[] Understanding, translating, and understanding translations [] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Hi.ι‘ve been reading Jude and thinking about three relative pronouns, hOUS in verses 22 and 23.Since they are relative pronouns, ι assume that the referent (in this case, Masculine Plural) should be found in the preceding text. If this is the case, the strongest candidate for the referent would be hOUTOI in verse 19. What made me think more about this is that my teacher suggested to take these relative pronouns as independent of the preceding text, ι mean, here, another group of people are introduced by the use of hOUS. Is there such uses of relative pronoun elsewhere?Thanks,Yuki
[] Understanding, translating, and understanding translations[] hOUS in Jude 22,23
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Steven Lo Vullo slovullo at charter.net
Sun Oct 14 00:37:37 εδτ 2007
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 [] hOUS in Jude 22,23 On Oct 13, 2007, at 8:38 πμ, Yamada Yuki wrote:> ι‘ve been reading Jude and thinking about three relative pronouns,> hOUS in verses 22 and 23.> Since they are relative pronouns, ι assume that the referent (in this> case, Masculine Plural) should be found in the preceding text. If> this is the case, the strongest candidate for the referent would be> hOUTOI in verse 19. What made me think more about this is that my> teacher suggested to take these relative pronouns as independent of> the preceding text, ι mean, here, another group of people are> introduced by the use of hOUS. Is there such uses of relative pronoun> elsewhere?Hi Yamada:22 και hOUS μεν ελεατε διακρινομενουσ, 23 hOUS δε SWiZETE εκ πυροσ hARPAZONTES, hOUS δε ελεατε εν FOBWi μισουντεσ και τον απο θσ σαρκοσ εσπιλωμενον ξιτωνα.hOS is used here as a demonstrative pronoun. The key is the presence of μεν and δε. They are often used with various forms of hOS to mark two or more contrasted items. So μεν hOUS … δε hOUS … δε hOUS are in the passage at hand used to indicate some who are to be approached in one way, others in another, and still others in another, depending on their distinctive situations. The idea with this structure is “some … others … others.” It is not at all uncommon.============Steven Lo VulloMadison, ωι
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23[] hOUS in Jude 22,23
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sun Oct 14 01:43:40 εδτ 2007
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 [] Semantics —– Original Message —– From: “Yamada Yuki” <skepuki at gmail.com>> Hi.> > ι‘ve been reading Jude and thinking about three relative pronouns,> hOUS in verses 22 and 23.> Since they are relative pronouns, ι assume that the referent (in this> case, Masculine Plural) should be found in the preceding text. If> this is the case, the strongest candidate for the referent would be> hOUTOI in verse 19. What made me think more about this is that my> teacher suggested to take these relative pronouns as independent of> the preceding text, ι mean, here, another group of people are> introduced by the use of hOUS. Is there such uses of relative pronoun> elsewhere?> > Thanks,> YukiYes there is, and it is particularly common in a construction with μεν and δε. Both you and your teacher are on the fight track, so try to combine both insights.Compare Rom 14:1-5, where in verse 1 the weak in faith is introduced as topic. Then in verse 2, we read:hOS μεν πιστευει φαγειν παντα, hO δε ασθενων λαξανα ESQIEIIn v. 4 the topic of a servant of the Lord is introduced and then we read in v. 5:hOS μεν κρινει hHMERAN παρ‘ hHMERAN, hOS δε κρινει πασαν hHMERANUsually the relatives refer back to some group of people or some things (like the implicit seeds in Mat 13:4 and parallels) mentioned or implied in the preceding context and then those people or things are divided into subgroups of which one subgroup is compared or contrasted to another subgroup. In v. 5 the different servants are compared, some of whom consider one day to be above another, others of whom consider all days the same.However, in v. 2, the reference is more general, pointing to people/believers of whom some believe they are allowed to eat everything, while the weak in faith eat only vegetables (that is, abstaining from sacrificial meat).In Jude 22-23 you have three groups which are described in various ways.και hOUS μεν ελεατε διακρινομενουσ, hOUS δε SWiZETE εκ πυροσ hARPAZONTES, hOUS δε ελεατε εν FOBWi μισουντεσ και τον απο θσ σαρκησ εσπιλωμενον ξιτωνα.ι don’t think these three groups are subgroups of the hOUTOI in v. 19, but rather subgroups of people in general. You may postulate an implied ανθρωποι as referent, so the sense is: to some people specified as follows, do this, to others do that, and to others again do something else.Group 1 is characterized as wavering/doubting – διακρινομενουσ, show them kindness and empathy.Group 2 is on the brink of destruction/punishment, so you should save them by snatching them out of the impending fire – εκ πυροσ hARPAZONTESGroup 3 are sinners who should be shown mercy while at the same time their sinful actions should be shunned.The three groups may well have some overlap.Iver Larsen
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23[] Semantics
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Sun Oct 14 11:26:31 εδτ 2007
[] hOUS in Jude 22,23 [] hOUS in Jude 22,23 Yuki,Iver has explained this quite clearly.This construction is found in Attic with the article hO, hH, το used as a demonstrative, but in later greek the relative is used. See Smyth #1106-#1112, ν.Turner p36, α.τ.Robertson p696.Elizabeth Kline