[] Bloody Sweat Alexander Ring akring at mac.com
Wed Mar 23 17:49:18 EDT 2011
[] A Handbook of New Testament Greek Grammar – Peter Frick [] Bloody Sweat Lk 22:44καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος KAI EGENETO O hIDRWS AUTOU hWSEI QROMBOI AIMATOSEvery year this bothers me, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted a question about it here.I always understood this verse to say, “And his sweat became like large drops of blood”; where hWSEI means something like “could be compared to”, not “turned into”. Yet every Lent we hear about the “bloody sweat”.So what is the natural meaning of hWSEI here? Rev. Alexander Ring11214 3rd Ave ETacoma, WA 98445akring at me.comThe human mind had never invented a labor-saving machine equal to algebra.
[] A Handbook of New Testament Greek Grammar – Peter Frick[] Bloody Sweat
[] Bloody Sweat George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Wed Mar 23 19:01:18 EDT 2011
[] Bloody Sweat [] Bloody Sweat Ὡσεί hWSEI indicates a comparison. It does not indicate identity. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Alexander Ring <akring at mac.com>To: greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 2:49:18 PMSubject: [] Bloody SweatLk 22:44καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος KAI EGENETO O hIDRWS AUTOU hWSEI QROMBOI AIMATOSEvery year this bothers me, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted a question about it here.I always understood this verse to say, “And his sweat became like large drops of blood”; where hWSEI means something like “could be compared to”, not “turned into”. Yet every Lent we hear about the “bloody sweat”.So what is the natural meaning of hWSEI here? Rev. Alexander Ring11214 3rd Ave ETacoma, WA 98445akring at me.comThe human mind had never invented a labor-saving machine equal to algebra.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Bloody Sweat[] Bloody Sweat
[] Bloody Sweat Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg waldeinburg at yahoo.com
Thu Mar 24 10:50:40 EDT 2011
[] Bloody Sweat [] Bloody Sweat > Ὡσεί hWSEI indicates a comparison. It does not indicate identity.Correct, but so does the english ‘like’. I think it’s actually hard to see how the translations could have created the blood-sweating traditition. Neither Vulgata nor KJV gives any obvious reason to this.I usually hear the blood-sweating interpreted as a sign of how much Jesus were sweating, not as a transformation: If he were sweating blood, boy, he was sweating! I even heard some say that it is anatomically (sorry, that’s not the right word, but you get the point) possible.The picture the text tries to convey is probably just that he sweated so much that it dripped. If you are sweating a bit your skin gets damp; but this is heavy sweating: The sweat comes out of the skin comparable to blood flowing out of a wound.- Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg________________________________From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: Alexander Ring <akring at mac.com>; greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 12:01:18 AMSubject: Re: [] Bloody SweatὩσεί hWSEI indicates a comparison. It does not indicate identity. georgegfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.- Jan Hus_________ ________________________________From: Alexander Ring <akring at mac.com>To: greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 2:49:18 PMSubject: [] Bloody SweatLk 22:44καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος KAI EGENETO O hIDRWS AUTOU hWSEI QROMBOI AIMATOSEvery year this bothers me, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted a question about it here.I always understood this verse to say, “And his sweat became like large drops of blood”; where hWSEI means something like “could be compared to”, not “turned into”. Yet every Lent we hear about the “bloody sweat”.So what is the natural meaning of hWSEI here? Rev. Alexander Ring11214 3rd Ave ETacoma, WA 98445akring at me.comThe human mind had never invented a labor-saving machine equal to algebra.— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ — home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Bloody Sweat[] Bloody Sweat
[] Bloody Sweat Vasile Stancu stancu.c.vasile at gmail.com
Thu Mar 24 15:21:54 EDT 2011
[] Bloody Sweat [] Mt 6:15 AFHTE vs. AFIETE On 3/24/2011 1:01 AM, George F Somsel wrote:> Ὡσεί hWSEI indicates a comparison. It does not indicate identity.> > george> gfsomsel> > > … search for truth, hear truth,> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,> defend the truth till death.> > > – Jan Hus> _________> > > > > ________________________________> From: Alexander Ring<akring at mac.com>> To: greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 2:49:18 PM> Subject: [] Bloody Sweat> > Lk 22:44> καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος> > KAI EGENETO O hIDRWS AUTOU hWSEI QROMBOI AIMATOS> > Every year this bothers me, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted a question about> it here.> > I always understood this verse to say, “And his sweat became like large drops of> blood”; where hWSEI means something like “could be compared to”, not “turned> into”. Yet every Lent we hear about the “bloody sweat”.> > So what is the natural meaning of hWSEI here?> > Rev. Alexander Ring> 11214 3rd Ave E> Tacoma, WA 98445> > akring at me.com> > The human mind had never invented a labor-saving machine equal to algebra.> > —> home page:http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > > > —> home page:http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/As I read this text – and there are many other passages toward which I would have the same kind of attitude – I tend to just marvel, rather than try to analyze what that would mean in concrete terms. I agree with George that a comparison is what the author has here in view. However, I feel that the question asked would be not really answered this way. As a reader of this text, I see the author describing a fact as seen by an eye witness: Jesus in agony and sweat dropping from his face onto the ground, that looks like drops of blood. An eye witness (at least one of those present there at that event) would simply marvel seeing some extraordinary sign of the intensity of Jesus’ agony and would be not interested at all to rush and check whether that was real blood, or whatever else.Vasile Stancu
[] Bloody Sweat[] Mt 6:15 AFHTE vs. AFIETE
[bible passage=”Luke 22:44″]
Lk 22:44 καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος
KAI EGENETO O hIDRWS AUTOU hWSEI QROMBOI AIMATOS
Every year this bothers me, but I don’t think I’ve ever posted a question about it here.
I always understood this verse to say, “And his sweat became like large drops of blood”; where hWSEI means something like “could be compared to”, not “turned into”. Yet every Lent we hear about the “bloody sweat”.
So what is the natural meaning of hWSEI here?
Rev. Alexander Ring 11214 3rd Ave E Tacoma, WA 98445
The human mind had never invented a labor-saving machine equal to algebra.
I am presuming that EKTENESTERON in Luke 22:44 is a comparative of EKTENHS, but where does the Sigma in the middle before the comparative ending come from? Thanks.
Ken
I am presuming that EKTENESTERON in Luke 22:44 is a comparative of EKTENHS, but where does the Sigma in the middle before the comparative ending come from? Thanks.
Ken
EKTENHS is an s-stem adjective, so the sigma was there all along as part of the stem. In most forms of s-stem adjectives, however, the sigma disappears, but it is still there in the comparative.
Stephen C. Carlson
Graduate Program in Religion
Duke University
EKTENHS is an s-stem adjective, so the sigma was there all along as part of the stem. In most forms of s-stem adjectives, however, the sigma disappears, but it is still there in the comparative.
Stephen C. Carlson
Graduate Program in Religion
Duke University
Stephen wrote:
part of the stem. In most forms of s-stem adjectives, however, the sigma disappears, but it is still there in the comparative.>
Hi, Stephen and Kenneth,
The sigma is still there in the comparative, presumably, because unlike in the other forms, it is not intervocalic. (For those of you in Rio Linda, “intervocalic” is bombast for “between vowels.”)
In fact, as far as I can tell, the sigma in the comparative is the only evidence that the stem is ??????? and not ??????/?, since the sigma in the nominative could just be the ending. (Although maybe the vocative ??????? also points to the sigma as part of the stem. Is the vocative what you meant by “most forms,” or is there another form where the sigma does not disappear?)
Mark L ????????
FWSFOROS MARKOS
Pretty much, yes. I had originally considered “non-oblique forms” but changed it to “most forms” in a bid to safeguard accuracy at the expense of clarity.
Stephen
Stephen wrote:
part of the stem. In most forms of s-stem adjectives, however, the sigma disappears, but it is still there in the comparative.>
Hi, Stephen and Kenneth,
The sigma is still there in the comparative, presumably, because unlike in the other forms, it is not intervocalic. (For those of you in Rio Linda, “intervocalic” is bombast for “between vowels.”)
In fact, as far as I can tell, the sigma in the comparative is the only evidence that the stem is ??????? and not ??????/?, since the sigma in the nominative could just be the ending. (Although maybe the vocative ??????? also points to the sigma as part of the stem. Is the vocative what you meant by “most forms,” or is there another form where the sigma does not disappear?)
Mark L ????????
FWSFOROS MARKOS
Pretty much, yes. I had originally considered “non-oblique forms” but changed it to “most forms” in a bid to safeguard accuracy at the expense of clarity.
Stephen
Alright smarty pants, you’re gonna make me get out my Greek books. (Not my forte). I’m glad YOU can. (Do you pray in koine Greek too? Attic? Then you say it’s tongues…..just kidding).
I would know Link Hudson is never there to interpret 🙂
Thank you for your work. But if you can wrap your mind around this in English you will be closer to the divine son of man than ever. This for me is more evidence of the veracity of scripture. This and the water and the blood from his wounded side which flowed. Both better understood in light of modern medicine.
Well then St. Luke is out of that loop. I mean, if we have to understand it in the light of MODERN medicine…..;-) (heheheh).
He was “put to nought” Luke says.
My understanding is limited. But what a finish for our Lord. Such courage and devotion. Do you want to understand holiness sanctification consecration. His end is our start!
You think YOUR understanding is limited? I can hardly read Greek! Dr. Fancifimus Troyus Dayus up there is going to read the original and then preach a homily in Latin for us! 😉
(Alas, I only have a Bachelor’s in History and a quarter of a Master’s in Education. Poor me. And a crapload of piano-performance experience …and many, many Bible classes and scores of theology books read but….;-)
Brother Walter if you can worship God with clarity and passion you are behind no man! Jesus blood makes us acceptable not Greek. No disrespect. We need scholars. … just saying
Street Preacherz Amen. I agree. I do have some areas of amateur expertise. (Cults and worlds religions for starters, apologetics etc.)
Forget it. Know Him! This is eternal life!!!
Street Preacherz John 17:3. Don’t worry, you’re no stranger to me. I’ve done street preaching too.
Wish you come up here. We need help. From God first. Honest men second.
Of Course I can’t read all the Hebrew you have written. But in English as it is written. Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane. And being in agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as it were great drop of blood falling down to the ground. Portrays a recognized fact that under extreme mental pressure , the pores may become so dilated that blood may issue from them in the form of bloody sweat. I know He had pressure , great pressure on Him. I believe He had souls on His Shoulders that if He didn’t go through with this Cup. All those souls would not have a Heaven to go too. But as I think of all the pours of His Body becoming as great stopes of blood or bloody sweat. I take it that He bless in every portion of His Body to give us Complete Victory, over every cell of our body. I know that will be kinder garden to some people. But I have felt that for a long time. I know He was getting the flesh under subjection. But again He said he kept the Law in all parts yet without sin. My Bible commentary gives great points. But I jus wanted to explain we have Victory over our whole body. His Blood from the the head with the crown of thorns. And his Side and feet and hands was Sufficient. I still feel the burden He felt was total surrender over the flesh to go through this. This was a great Load.
Alright smarty pants, you’re gonna make me get out my Greek books. (Not my forte). I’m glad YOU can. (Do you pray in koine Greek too? Attic? Then you say it’s tongues…..just kidding).
I would know Link Hudson is never there to interpret 🙂
Thank you for your work. But if you can wrap your mind around this in English you will be closer to the divine son of man than ever. This for me is more evidence of the veracity of scripture. This and the water and the blood from his wounded side which flowed. Both better understood in light of modern medicine.
Well then St. Luke is out of that loop. I mean, if we have to understand it in the light of MODERN medicine…..;-) (heheheh).
He was “put to nought” Luke says.
My understanding is limited. But what a finish for our Lord. Such courage and devotion. Do you want to understand holiness sanctification consecration. His end is our start!
You think YOUR understanding is limited? I can hardly read Greek! Dr. Fancifimus Troyus Dayus up there is going to read the original and then preach a homily in Latin for us! 😉
(Alas, I only have a Bachelor’s in History and a quarter of a Master’s in Education. Poor me. And a crapload of piano-performance experience …and many, many Bible classes and scores of theology books read but….;-)
Brother Walter if you can worship God with clarity and passion you are behind no man! Jesus blood makes us acceptable not Greek. No disrespect. We need scholars. … just saying
Street Preacherz Amen. I agree. I do have some areas of amateur expertise. (Cults and worlds religions for starters, apologetics etc.)
Forget it. Know Him! This is eternal life!!!
Street Preacherz John 17:3. Don’t worry, you’re no stranger to me. I’ve done street preaching too.
Wish you come up here. We need help. From God first. Honest men second.
Of Course I can’t read all the Hebrew you have written. But in English as it is written. Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane. And being in agony He prayed more earnestly: and His sweat was as it were great drop of blood falling down to the ground. Portrays a recognized fact that under extreme mental pressure , the pores may become so dilated that blood may issue from them in the form of bloody sweat. I know He had pressure , great pressure on Him. I believe He had souls on His Shoulders that if He didn’t go through with this Cup. All those souls would not have a Heaven to go too. But as I think of all the pours of His Body becoming as great stopes of blood or bloody sweat. I take it that He bless in every portion of His Body to give us Complete Victory, over every cell of our body. I know that will be kinder garden to some people. But I have felt that for a long time. I know He was getting the flesh under subjection. But again He said he kept the Law in all parts yet without sin. My Bible commentary gives great points. But I jus wanted to explain we have Victory over our whole body. His Blood from the the head with the crown of thorns. And his Side and feet and hands was Sufficient. I still feel the burden He felt was total surrender over the flesh to go through this. This was a great Load.