[bible passage=”Luke 22:70″]
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[bible passage=”Luke 22:70″]
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On Thu Aug 11 06:53:09 EDT 2005 Carl Conrad wrote:
Here we go again: I’m not complaining, just commenting. Seems to me this is a question that won’t ever be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. Some are fully confident that they know exactly what this means while others (myself included) can only admit to endless puzzlement. My own inclination (not by any means a firm conclusion) is that the ambiguity is intentional.
This was found in the archives. For those who may not know, (I did not know until Carl did one of his helpful posts), the archives can be found at http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/index.html http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/index.html%C2%A0%C2%A0 where a google search can be done. It has a wealth of information.
Carl was commenting on the thread entitled Luke 22:70& 23:3 ‘you say’? I agree with him that this question probably will never be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. (Here comes the *Here we go again*) Nevertheless, I had one final comment/question. :> )
LUKE 22:70 EIPAN DE PANTES. SU OUN EI hO hUIOS TOU QEOU; hO DE PROS AUTOUS EFH. hUMEIS LEGETE hOTI EGW EIMI.
I realize that after verbs of knowing and saying hOTI normally introduces an indirect statement. However, sometimes it seems, even after a verb of saying, hOTI is used to introduce a causal phrase.
NEHEMIAH 6:8 KAI APESTEILA PROS AUTON LEGWN OUK EGENHQH hWS hOI LOGOI hOUTOI hOUS *SU LEGEIS hOTI APO KARDIAS SOU SU YEUDHi AUTOUS.*
Cf. also I Maccabees 13:18; Jer. 1:6 and Gen. 3:17.
If this is true, and, indeed, there are some exceptions, maybe Luke is actually having Jesus reply, *You speak, because I am [he].
In other words, Jesus is indirectly affirming that the reason why his accusers are able to question and speak to him in such an authoritative manner, (being part of the Sanhedrin), is because he was indeed the Christ, the Son of the Blessed, the one who would sit at the right hand of the power of God. It was he who gave them the authority they possessed; they thought they were the ones possessing the power and authority, but Jesus was declaring to them their power and authority was derived from him. He was the one who actually gave them the right to sit in Moses’ chair and *speak.*
MATTHEW 23:2-3 LEGWN, EPI THS MWSEWS KAQEDRAS EKAQISAN hOI GRAMMATEIS KAI hOI FARISAIOI. PANTA OUN hOSA EAN EIPWSIN hUMIN POIHSATE KAI THREITE, KATA DE TA ERGA AUTWN MH POIEITE. LEGOUSIN GAR KAI OU POIOUSIN.
If this is what Jesus is saying, it seems it would be a similar concept spoken to Pilate in John 19:10-11. Obviously, they would take offence at such a declaration.
I realize all the other occurrences of the exact phrase hUMEIS LEGETE hOTI in the GNT do not introduce a casual phrase (Jn. 4:20,35;8:54; 9:19; 10:36), however, perhaps, this might be one of the exceptions.?
Sincerely, Blue Harris
P.S. I noticed that the Clementine Vulgate 1598 gives Luke 22:70 as the following — Dixerunt autem omnes: Tu ergo es Filius Dei? Qui ait: Vos dicitis, quia ego sum.
From my almost non-existent knowledge of Latin, it seems quia can also be used in the sense of *that;* if this is so, why would they put a comma after dicitis? By use of the comma are they are also indicating, (in their opinion), that quia might also be understood in the casual sense of *because?* Is this their way of bringing ambiguity into the text?
This seems to be the only edition of the Vulgate that I can find with a comma after dicitis.
========
“There you go again…”
Ronald Reagan, October, 1980.
Blue wrote:
Hi, Blue,
If true, this would be a type of pun on the word ὅτι. Your argument would be
stronger if John were the writer, where these types of double meanings are more
common. Joking around with people who are thinking about putting you to death
is a Greek tradition as old as Socrates, so maybe Luke is having a little fun
here.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
Ancient Greek Joke
Mortal: What is a million years like to you?
Zeus: Like one second.
Mortal: What is a million dollars like to you?
Zeus: Like one penny.
Mortal: Can I have a million dollars?
Zeus: Just a second…
========
Hi Mark,
I just stumbled across this book on google by A.T. Robertson: The student’s
chronological New Testament: text of the American Standard.
http://books.google.com/books?id=_-4oAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=luke+22:70+%22because+i+am%22&source=bl&ots=4FG6ER32JO&sig=DMYL0fyrbd6G2UYehOqFIsbNGd0&hl=en&ei=eSLMTITaPIHmsQOu2O2FDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDAQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=luke%2022%3A70%20%22because%20i%20am%22&f=false
The note under Luke 22:70 says, *Or, Ye say it, because I am.* At first I
thought it was a note by Robertson, but I think it is just the note of the
translators of the 1901 American Standard Version.
Per your suggestion, maybe in Luke we have the mocking referred to in Psalm 2:4.
: > )
PARESTHSAN hOI BASILEIS THS GHS KAI hOI ARCONTES SUNHCQHSAN EPI TO AUTO KATA TOU
KURIOU KAI KATA TOU CRISTOU AUTOU DIAYALMA
hO KATOIKWN EN OURANOIS EKGELASETAI AUTOUS KAI hO KURIOS EKMUKTHRIEI AUTOUS
Psalm 2:2,4
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers gathered themselves together,
against the Lord, and against his Christ;
He that dwells in the heavens shall laugh them to scorn, and the Lord shall mock
them. Psalm 2:2,4
Best regards,
Blue Harris
On Thu Aug 11 06:53:09 EDT 2005 Carl Conrad wrote:
Here we go again: I’m not complaining, just commenting. Seems to me this is a question that won’t ever be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. Some are fully confident that they know exactly what this means while others (myself included) can only admit to endless puzzlement. My own inclination (not by any means a firm conclusion) is that the ambiguity is intentional.
This was found in the archives. For those who may not know, (I did not know until Carl did one of his helpful posts), the archives can be found at http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/index.html http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/archives/index.html%C2%A0%C2%A0 where a google search can be done. It has a wealth of information.
Carl was commenting on the thread entitled Luke 22:70& 23:3 ‘you say’? I agree with him that this question probably will never be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction. (Here comes the *Here we go again*) Nevertheless, I had one final comment/question. :> )
LUKE 22:70 EIPAN DE PANTES. SU OUN EI hO hUIOS TOU QEOU; hO DE PROS AUTOUS EFH. hUMEIS LEGETE hOTI EGW EIMI.
I realize that after verbs of knowing and saying hOTI normally introduces an indirect statement. However, sometimes it seems, even after a verb of saying, hOTI is used to introduce a causal phrase.
NEHEMIAH 6:8 KAI APESTEILA PROS AUTON LEGWN OUK EGENHQH hWS hOI LOGOI hOUTOI hOUS *SU LEGEIS hOTI APO KARDIAS SOU SU YEUDHi AUTOUS.*
Cf. also I Maccabees 13:18; Jer. 1:6 and Gen. 3:17.
If this is true, and, indeed, there are some exceptions, maybe Luke is actually having Jesus reply, *You speak, because I am [he].
In other words, Jesus is indirectly affirming that the reason why his accusers are able to question and speak to him in such an authoritative manner, (being part of the Sanhedrin), is because he was indeed the Christ, the Son of the Blessed, the one who would sit at the right hand of the power of God. It was he who gave them the authority they possessed; they thought they were the ones possessing the power and authority, but Jesus was declaring to them their power and authority was derived from him. He was the one who actually gave them the right to sit in Moses’ chair and *speak.*
MATTHEW 23:2-3 LEGWN, EPI THS MWSEWS KAQEDRAS EKAQISAN hOI GRAMMATEIS KAI hOI FARISAIOI. PANTA OUN hOSA EAN EIPWSIN hUMIN POIHSATE KAI THREITE, KATA DE TA ERGA AUTWN MH POIEITE. LEGOUSIN GAR KAI OU POIOUSIN.
If this is what Jesus is saying, it seems it would be a similar concept spoken to Pilate in John 19:10-11. Obviously, they would take offence at such a declaration.
I realize all the other occurrences of the exact phrase hUMEIS LEGETE hOTI in the GNT do not introduce a casual phrase (Jn. 4:20,35;8:54; 9:19; 10:36), however, perhaps, this might be one of the exceptions.?
Sincerely, Blue Harris
P.S. I noticed that the Clementine Vulgate 1598 gives Luke 22:70 as the following — Dixerunt autem omnes: Tu ergo es Filius Dei? Qui ait: Vos dicitis, quia ego sum.
From my almost non-existent knowledge of Latin, it seems quia can also be used in the sense of *that;* if this is so, why would they put a comma after dicitis? By use of the comma are they are also indicating, (in their opinion), that quia might also be understood in the casual sense of *because?* Is this their way of bringing ambiguity into the text?
This seems to be the only edition of the Vulgate that I can find with a comma after dicitis.
========
“There you go again…”
Ronald Reagan, October, 1980.
Blue wrote:
Hi, Blue,
If true, this would be a type of pun on the word ὅτι. Your argument would be
stronger if John were the writer, where these types of double meanings are more
common. Joking around with people who are thinking about putting you to death
is a Greek tradition as old as Socrates, so maybe Luke is having a little fun
here.
Mark L
Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
Ancient Greek Joke
Mortal: What is a million years like to you?
Zeus: Like one second.
Mortal: What is a million dollars like to you?
Zeus: Like one penny.
Mortal: Can I have a million dollars?
Zeus: Just a second…
========
Hi Mark,
I just stumbled across this book on google by A.T. Robertson: The student’s
chronological New Testament: text of the American Standard.
http://books.google.com/books?id=_-4oAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=luke+22:70+%22because+i+am%22&source=bl&ots=4FG6ER32JO&sig=DMYL0fyrbd6G2UYehOqFIsbNGd0&hl=en&ei=eSLMTITaPIHmsQOu2O2FDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CDAQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=luke%2022%3A70%20%22because%20i%20am%22&f=false
The note under Luke 22:70 says, *Or, Ye say it, because I am.* At first I
thought it was a note by Robertson, but I think it is just the note of the
translators of the 1901 American Standard Version.
Per your suggestion, maybe in Luke we have the mocking referred to in Psalm 2:4.
: > )
PARESTHSAN hOI BASILEIS THS GHS KAI hOI ARCONTES SUNHCQHSAN EPI TO AUTO KATA TOU
KURIOU KAI KATA TOU CRISTOU AUTOU DIAYALMA
hO KATOIKWN EN OURANOIS EKGELASETAI AUTOUS KAI hO KURIOS EKMUKTHRIEI AUTOUS
Psalm 2:2,4
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers gathered themselves together,
against the Lord, and against his Christ;
He that dwells in the heavens shall laugh them to scorn, and the Lord shall mock
them. Psalm 2:2,4
Best regards,
Blue Harris