Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Sep 25 12:23:52 EDT 2002
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) accusative indirect objects? NA27 : OUK HDEITE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI EINAI MED05, W : OUK OIDATE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI.Chabert: EINAI is put forward in D05 at the end of the clause; thisplacement implies an existential sense of EINAI; in that case, what reasonis there not to consider TOIS a masculine pronoun referring to the personsdesignated in v 46,i.e. the DIDASKALOI?– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)accusative indirect objects?
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Sep 25 12:23:44 EDT 2002
Lk 2:42: age of Jesus in the Temple (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) D05 :FWS EIS APOKALUYIN KAI DOXANNA27: FWS EIS APOKALUYIN EQNWN KAI DOXANChabert: What justification is there for the usual translation: “a lightfor revelation to the Gentiles” (e.g. NET), with genitive EQNWN regarded asa dative of interest?– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:42: age of Jesus in the Temple (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Sep 25 20:04:58 EDT 2002
Lk 2:32 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Uses of GAR For George Somsel:From: Polycarp66 at aol.comDate: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:01:49 EDT>In a message dated 9/25/2002 12:26:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> >>NA27 : OUK HDEITE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI EINAI ME>>D05, W : OUK OIDATE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI.>> >>Chabert: EINAI is put forward in D05 at the end of the clause; this>>placement implies an existential sense of EINAI; in that case, what reason>>is there not to consider TOIS a masculine pronoun referring to the persons>>designated in v 46,i.e. the DIDASKALOI?>> > > >I may be “putting my foot in it” here, but I think I will agree with you>that TOIS would seem to refer to DIDASKALWN in v 46 whether or not one>concedes that EINAI has an existential sense. When reference is made to>the temple it is EN TWi hIERWi, a singular. TOIS, however, is plural as>is DIDASKALWN. > >Nevertheless, I don’t see how an existential sense can be derived from the>passage regardless of whether one accepts C. Bezae’s reading or that of>NA27. What we have is a phrase consisting of EINAI ME + EN + TOIS>[DIDASKALOIS]. This would simply indicate where he would be found.> >gfsomsel
Lk 2:32 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)Uses of GAR
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Sep 26 07:13:06 EDT 2002
Lk 2:32 FWS EIS APOKALUYIN (Luke in Codex Bezae) Lk 2:32 FWS EIS APOKALUYIN (Luke in Codex Bezae) Englished and forwarded for Mme Chabert d’Hyères:Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:49:02 +0000From: “S Chabert d’Hyères” <laodicy at ifrance.com>Reply to George Somsel>NA27 : OUK HDEITE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI EINAI ME>>D05, W : OUK OIDATE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI.>I may be “putting my foot in it” here, but I think I will agree with you>that TOIS would seem to refer to DIDASKALWN in v 46 whether or not one>concedes that EINAI has an existential sense.Then the question to be asked is: Why the choice of TOIS in preference toanother pronoun?> When reference is made to the temple it is EN TWi hIERWi, a singular.Precisely what are you alluding to?Thanks in advance,Sylvie Chabert d’Hyères
Lk 2:32 FWS EIS APOKALUYIN (Luke in Codex Bezae)Lk 2:32 FWS EIS APOKALUYIN (Luke in Codex Bezae)
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Sep 26 12:43:57 EDT 2002
Mark 2:28 (KURIOS) DIAKON- For George Somsel:In a message dated 9/26/2002 7:14:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:>Reply to George Somsel>>NA27 : OUK HDEITE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI EINAI ME>>>D05, W : OUK OIDATE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI.> >>I may be “putting my foot in it” here, but I think I will agree with you>>that TOIS would seem to refer to DIDASKALWN in v 46 whether or not one>>concedes that EINAI has an existential sense.> >Then the question to be asked is: Why the choice of TOIS in preference to>another pronoun?> >> When reference is made to the temple it is EN TWi hIERWi, a singular.> >Precisely what are you alluding to?> The usual translation (in English) for Lk 2.49 is “I must be in my Father’shouse” or “I must be about my Father’s business.” Since EN TWi hIERWi issingular, TOIS being plural would seem to exclude that understanding. “MyFather’s business [NASB footnote “affairs”] would be a possibility. On theother hand, it could also refer to TWN DIDASKALWN in v. 46 which would thenyield “I must be among my father’s teachers” (not those who teach God, butthose who teach for God).gfsomsel
Mark 2:28 (KURIOS)DIAKON-
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Sep 26 16:09:34 EDT 2002
DIAKON- ] DIAKON- At 10:10 AM -0400 9/26/02, Polycarp66 at aol.com wrote:>In a message dated 9/26/2002 7:14:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> >>Reply to George Somsel>>>NA27 : OUK HDEITE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI EINAI ME>>>>D05, W : OUK OIDATE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI.>> >>>I may be “putting my foot in it” here, but I think I will agree with you>>>that TOIS would seem to refer to DIDASKALWN in v 46 whether or not one>>>concedes that EINAI has an existential sense.>> >>Then the question to be asked is: Why the choice of TOIS in preference to>>another pronoun?>> >>> When reference is made to the temple it is EN TWi hIERWi, a singular.>> >>Precisely what are you alluding to?>> > > >The usual translation (in English) for Lk 2.49 is “I must be in my>Father’s house” or “I must be about my Father’s business.” Since EN TWi>hIERWi is singular, TOIS being plural would seem to exclude that>understanding. “My Father’s business [NASB footnote “affairs”] would be a>possibility. On the other hand, it could also refer to TWN DIDASKALWN in>v. 46 which would then yield “I must be among my father’s teachers” (not>those who teach God, but those who teach for God).Frankly I don’t believe that is really a viable option. The neuter singularor plural article with a genitive is so common in the sense “things havingto do with” or “matters concerning” that I can’t but think that is by farthe most likely sense here, rather than that DIDASKALOI should be impliedfrom the earlier verse. And according to BDAG on substantive usage of theneuter plural: EMOSg. The art. w. the gen. foll. denotes a relation of kinship,ownership, or dependence: … -TO, TA TINOS someone’s things, affairs,circumstances (Thu. 4, 83 TA TOU ARRIBAIOU; Parthenius 1, 6; Appian, Syr.16 §67 TA RWMAIWN) TA TOU QEOU, TWN ANQRWPWN Mt 16:23; 22:21; {p. 689} Mk8:33; cp. 1 Cor 2:11. TA THS SARKOS, TOU PNEUMATOS Ro 8:5; cp. 14:19; 1 Cor7:33f; 13:11. TA hUMWN 2 Cor 12:14. TA THS ASQENEIAS MOU 11:30. TA TOUNOMOU what the law requires Ro 2:14. TO THS SUKHS what has been done to thefig tree Mt 21:21; cp. 8:33. TA hEAUTHS its own advantage 1 Cor 13:5; cp.Phil 2:4, 21. TO THS PAROIMIAS what the proverb says 2 Pt 2:22 (Pla.,Theaet. 183e TO TOU hOMHROU; Menand., Dyscolus 633 TO TOU LOGOU). EN TOISTOU PATROS MOU in my Father’s house (so Field, Notes 50-56; Goodsp. Probs.81-83; difft., ‘interests’, PTemple, CBQ 1, ’39, 342-52.-In contrast to theother synoptists, Luke does not elsewhere show Jesus ‘at home’.) Lk 2:49(Lysias 12, 12 EIS TA TOU ADELFOU v; Theocr. 2, 76 TA LUKWNOS; pap inMayser II [1926] p. 8; POxy 523, 3 [II AD] an invitation to a dinner ENTOIS KLAUDIOU SARAPIWNOS; PTebt 316 II, 23 [99 AD] EN TOIS PATAMWNOS; Esth7:9; Job 18:19; Jos., Ant. 16, 302. Of the temple of a god Jos., C. Ap. 1,118 EN TOIS TOU DIOS). Mt 20:15 is classified here by WHatch, ATR 26, ‘44,250-53; s. also EMOS b.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
DIAKON-] DIAKON-
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Sep 27 06:28:20 EDT 2002
Matthew 21:28 and 32 Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Englished and forwarded to BG for Mme Chabert:At 4:09 PM -0400 9/26/02, Carl W. Conrad wrote:> > Frankly I don’t believe that is really a viable option. The neuter singular> or plural article with a genitive is so common in the sense “things having> to do with” or “matters concerning” that I can’t but think that is by far> the most likely sense here, rather than that DIDASKALOI should be implied> from the earlier verse. And according to BDAG on substantive usage of the> neuter plural: EMOS> > EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU in my Father’s house (so Field, Notes 50-56; Goodsp.Probs. 81-83; difft., ‘interests’, PTemple, CBQ 1, ’39, 342-52.-In contrastto the other synoptists, Luke does not elsewhere show Jesus ‘at home’.) Lk2:49 POxy 523, 3 [II AD] an invitation to a dinner EN TOIS KLAUDIOUSARAPIWNOS; PTebt 316 II, 23 [99 AD] EN TOIS PATAMWNOS; Esth 7:9; Job18:19; Jos., Ant. 16, 302. Of the temple of a god Jos., C. Ap. 1,> 118 EN TOIS TOU DIOS).Carl,Can’t one rebut that with these citations from Alexander’s Dictionary whichindicates its sources only incompletely:- Sophocle, EN DE TOIS EGW, “and I am among those …”- EN TINI EINAI, “to be in someone’s power”- EN TOIS MALISTA, “among those who are most so,” (Plato Ep 358b or Plut,Alc 24 ) ?Sylvie Chabert d’Hyères
Matthew 21:28 and 32Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Sep 27 06:36:50 EDT 2002
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Lk 2:32 FWS EIS APOKALUYIN (Luke in Codex Bezae) At 6:28 AM -0400 9/27/02, Carl W. Conrad wrote:>Englished and forwarded to BG for Mme Chabert:> >At 4:09 PM -0400 9/26/02, Carl W. Conrad wrote:>> >> Frankly I don’t believe that is really a viable option. The neuter singular>> or plural article with a genitive is so common in the sense “things having>> to do with” or “matters concerning” that I can’t but think that is by far>> the most likely sense here, rather than that DIDASKALOI should be implied>> from the earlier verse. And according to BDAG on substantive usage of the>> neuter plural: EMOS>> > >> EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU in my Father’s house (so Field, Notes 50-56; Goodsp.>Probs. 81-83; difft., ‘interests’, PTemple, CBQ 1, ’39, 342-52.-In contrast>to the other synoptists, Luke does not elsewhere show Jesus ‘at home’.) Lk>2:49 POxy 523, 3 [II AD] an invitation to a dinner EN TOIS KLAUDIOU>SARAPIWNOS; PTebt 316 II, 23 [99 AD] EN TOIS PATAMWNOS; Esth 7:9; Job>18:19; Jos., Ant. 16, 302. Of the temple of a god Jos., C. Ap. 1,>> 118 EN TOIS TOU DIOS).> >Carl,> >Can’t one rebut that with these citations from Alexander’s Dictionary>which indicates its sources only incompletely:> >– Sophocle, EN DE TOIS EGW, “and I am among those …”>– EN TINI EINAI, “to be in someone’s power”>– EN TOIS MALISTA, “among those who are most so,” (Plato Ep 358b or Plut,>Alc 24 ) ?> >Sylvie Chabert d’HyèresI don’t really think so; the citation from Sophocles is clearly instancesof the article in the archaic demonstrative function; EN TINI EINAI isdifferent in that it requires the name of the person holding power; EN TOISMALISTA comes closest, but it could only be used with a clearly implicitadjective which would be governed by MALISTA. I should note that I alsoagree with what George Somsel noted earlier: that EINAI in the D05 readinghere>>>NA27 : OUK HDEITE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI EINAI ME>>>D05, W : OUK OIDATE hOTI EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI.can’t really be existential since it’s a DEI + acc. + inf. construction,and that is so whether EINAI is in the final position of the clause or not.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)Lk 2:32 FWS EIS APOKALUYIN (Luke in Codex Bezae)
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Sep 27 16:03:25 EDT 2002
DIAKON- Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) For “S Chabert d’Hyères” <laodicy at ifrance.com>:EN TOIS :Is this a jeu d’esprit, a rabbinical pun or a literary jest?Carl,Flavius Josephus had a sense of humor which one may hope to findmeaningful. Upon pondering the example which you had cited:EN TOIS TOU DIOS (Contra Apionem 1,118)I checked more closely to see what it was about.As it turns out, the author of CONTRA APIONEM, when speaking of the goldencolumn of the temple of Tyre as TON EN TOIS TOU DIOS, was making a “double”allusion:(1) to the Phoenician historian named DIOS, about whom he was speaking inthe preceding lines, particularly at the end of v. 115: DIOS MEN hOUTW PERITWN PROEIRHMENWN;(2) and to what Dios himself had previously mentioned while speaking of thetemple of OLUMPIOU DIOS noted two lines earlier, and by Hiram at Tyre.You must admit that it’s rather “cute”, isn’t it? In line 118, DIOS refersunquestionably, if not to both, then at least to one of the two or else toone by means of the other; I conclude that EN TOIS indicates one or moreelements of an account which the writer leaves to the reader the task ofidentifying. It is some sort of literary allusion.Withe reference to Lk 2:49, EN TOIS would refer to the heavenly Father’sacquaintances, since Jesus answered his parents, who had been looking forhim among their kinsmen and acquaintainces (EN TOIS SUGGENEUSIN KAI EN TOISGNWSTOIS, LK 2:44), “Dont’ you know that I must be among my Father’s (ENTOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI) [acquaintances] (in this instance thepersons named in v. 46).Sylvie Chabert d’Hyereshttp://bezae.ifrance.com
DIAKON-Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Sep 27 16:24:29 EDT 2002
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) The implied verb in Eph 2:8 At 4:03 PM -0400 9/27/02, Carl W. Conrad wrote:>For “S Chabert d’Hyères” <laodicy at ifrance.com>:> >EN TOIS :> >Is this a jeu d’esprit, a rabbinical pun or a literary jest?> >Carl,> >Flavius Josephus had a sense of humor which one may hope to find>meaningful. Upon pondering the example which you had cited:> >EN TOIS TOU DIOS (Contra Apionem 1,118)> >I checked more closely to see what it was about.> >As it turns out, the author of CONTRA APIONEM, when speaking of the golden>column of the temple of Tyre as TON EN TOIS TOU DIOS, was making a “double”>allusion:> >(1) to the Phoenician historian named DIOS, about whom he was speaking in>the preceding lines, particularly at the end of v. 115: DIOS MEN hOUTW PERI>TWN PROEIRHMENWN;> >(2) and to what Dios himself had previously mentioned while speaking of the>temple of OLUMPIOU DIOS noted two lines earlier, and by Hiram at Tyre.I’m sorry, Sylvie; I really question that the sort of “jeu d’esprit” youare suggesting is present in that phrase EN TOIS TOU DIOS: DIOS in thatphrase can only be the genitive of the name of ZEUS; I don’t think there’sany allusion to the historian named DIOS–that would have to have been ENTOIS TOU DIOU. You may think that this is too close to be a coincidence,but I don’t think it’s any more than a coincidence.>You must admit that it’s rather “cute”, isn’t it? In line 118, DIOS refers>unquestionably, if not to both, then at least to one of the two or else to>one by means of the other; I conclude that EN TOIS indicates one or more>elements of an account which the writer leaves to the reader the task of>identifying. It is some sort of literary allusion.> >Withe reference to Lk 2:49, EN TOIS would refer to the heavenly Father’s>acquaintances, since Jesus answered his parents, who had been looking for>him among their kinsmen and acquaintainces (EN TOIS SUGGENEUSIN KAI EN TOIS>GNWSTOIS, LK 2:44), “Dont’ you know that I must be among my Father’s (EN>TOIS TOU PATROS MOU DEI ME EINAI) [acquaintances] (in this instance the>persons named in v. 46).No, I still don’t think that the TOIS of EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU can referback to the GNWSTOI; if the TOIS is not neuter plural referring to”concerns” (“business” as it has traditionally been translated in English),then the only alternative I can conceive is that, as per the example you’vecited, EN TOIS TOU DIOS, EN TOIS TOU PATROS MOU may conceivably mean, “inmy father’s [house].”– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:49 EN TOIS … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)The implied verb in Eph 2:8