Mark 16:2

Mk 16:2 Constituent Order c stirling bartholomew cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net
Tue Jun 26 14:57:36 EDT 2001

Sorry The text of Luke 2:2 and word order Anyone have anything to say about why ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU shows up atthe end of the clause in Mk 16:2. Mark piles up so many adverbials in thisclause that perhaps he just didn’t want to place yet another one before themain verb. This is a lame explanation. Surely one of you can do better.Also, I am wondering why we have a full stop after TOU hHLIOU. Seems likeKAI LIAN . . . TOU hHLIOU can be understood as a preface to KAI ELEGON PROShEAUTAS. The full stop, stops us where we should not stop. But that is adifferent question than the position of ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU or perhapsis is a related question.Some of you linguists have any ideas about the pragmatic significance of theclause final position of ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU?Comments from nonlinguists are also welcome.Clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062

SorryThe text of Luke 2:2 and word order

Mk 16:2 Constituent Order Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Tue Jun 26 16:44:55 EDT 2001

Luke 2:2 Luke 2:2 On Tue 26 Jun 2001 (11:57:36), cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net wrote:> Some of you linguists have any ideas about the pragmatic significance> of the clause final position of ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU?> > Comments from nonlinguists are also welcome. Dear Clay, As a non-linguist, ISTM that here we have two adverbial expressions of time, one being when the women set out for the tomb; the other being the time when they arrived there. Swete suggests we understand for ERCONTAI “EXELQOUSAI… HLQON” (HB Swete, /The Gospel according to St Mark/, Macmillan, London, 3rd Ed., 1920, p 395). LIAN PRWI means before dawn; ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU means after dawn: the one before the other, because the one *is* before the other! The Western MS D (Bezae) tries to reconcile LIAN PRWI with ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU by substituting the present tense for the aorist: ANATELLONTOS instead of ANATEILANTOS. This gives the sense “as the sun was beginning to rise”, harmonising with the accounts in Matthew 28:1, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1. The Latin Vulgate has /et valde mane… orto iam sole/ which seems to be whence Beza got his version. “Early one morning, just as the sun was rising…” as the English folk song has it. HTH ERRWSQE Ben– Revd Ben Crick, BA CF <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm

Luke 2:2Luke 2:2

Mk 16:2 Constituent Order c stirling bartholomew cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net
Tue Jun 26 22:53:17 EDT 2001

Comparing ALLOS and hETEROS Comparing ALLOS and hETEROS on 6/26/01 1:44 PM, Ben Crick wrote:> LIAN PRWI means before dawn; ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU> means after dawn: the one before the other, because the one *is* before the> other!Ben,This is very interesting. Are you suggesting that Mark wants us to read thisas a sort of motion picture sequence, where the time reference LIAN PRWI isthe beginning of the scene and ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU is at the end of thescene?That is a very intriguing idea.Thanks a lot for posting this.Warm Greetings,Clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062

Comparing ALLOS and hETEROSComparing ALLOS and hETEROS

Mk 16:2 Constituent Order Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Jun 27 07:04:02 EDT 2001

Hebrews 1:2 Comparing ALLOS and hETEROS (half-decent) At 11:57 AM -0700 6/26/01, c stirling bartholomew wrote:>Anyone have anything to say about why ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU shows up at>the end of the clause in Mk 16:2. Mark piles up so many adverbials in this>clause that perhaps he just didn’t want to place yet another one before the>main verb. This is a lame explanation. Surely one of you can do better.> >Also, I am wondering why we have a full stop after TOU hHLIOU. Seems like>KAI LIAN . . . TOU hHLIOU can be understood as a preface to KAI ELEGON PROS>hEAUTAS. The full stop, stops us where we should not stop. But that is a>different question than the position of ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU or perhaps>is is a related question.> >Some of you linguists have any ideas about the pragmatic significance of the>clause final position of ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU?I’ve read Ben Crick’s comment, but I frankly can’t see any real problem inthis verse. The text: KAI LIAN PRWI THi MIAi TWN SABBATWN ERCONTAI EPI TOMNHMEION ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU.I DON’T think there’s any contradiction between LIAN PRWI AND ANATEILANTOSTOU hHLIOU nor any redundancy either. LIAN PRWI means “very early” but itdoesn’t seem to me to indicate “before daybreak” as one would surmise in acomparable text in Mk 1:35 KAI PRWI ENNUCA LIAN ANASTAS EXHLQEN … In 16:2it seems to me that the writer wants to specify that it was very early inthe day but underscores at the end of the sentence that the arrival of thewomen at the tomb was AFTER SUNRISE. Looks to me like these temporalexpressions have gravitated toward the beginning and end of the statement.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityHome: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

Hebrews 1:2Comparing ALLOS and hETEROS (half-decent)

Mk 16:2 Constituent Order Ben Crick ben.crick at argonet.co.uk
Wed Jun 27 08:51:43 EDT 2001

Comparing ALLOS and hETEROS (half-decent) Mk 16:2 Constituent Order On Tue 26 Jun 2001 (19:53:17), cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net wrote:> Are you suggesting that Mark wants us to read this> as a sort of motion picture sequence, where the time reference LIAN> PRWI is the beginning of the scene and ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU is at> the end of the scene?> > That is a very intriguing idea. Thank you, Clay. Yes, Mark is the “action man” with his repeated breathless reporting KAI EUQUS…. Having heard Peter report these events again and again, he must have gotten a mental picture like an “action replay” playback which he then committed to paper as a direct, unrevised and uncorrected narrative. Far from being the “uncouth abbreviator of Matthew”, Mark is the amanuensis of Peter. Peter along with John were reported by Luke in Acts 4:13 as being ANQRWPOI AGRAMMATOI… KAI IDIWTAI. Perhaps Mark was consciously or unconsciously reproducing Peter’s Galilean fisherman’s preaching style? ERRWSQE Ben– Revd Ben Crick, BA CF <ben.crick at argonet.co.uk> 232 Canterbury Road, Birchington, Kent, CT7 9TD (UK) http://www.cnetwork.co.uk/crick.htm

Comparing ALLOS and hETEROS (half-decent)Mk 16:2 Constituent Order

Mk 16:2 Constituent Order Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Jun 27 10:04:36 EDT 2001

Mk 16:2 Constituent Order Comparing ALLOS and hETEROS (half-decent) At 1:51 PM +0100 6/27/01, Ben Crick wrote:>On Tue 26 Jun 2001 (19:53:17), cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net wrote:>> Are you suggesting that Mark wants us to read this>> as a sort of motion picture sequence, where the time reference LIAN>> PRWI is the beginning of the scene and ANATEILANTOS TOU hHLIOU is at>> the end of the scene?>> >> That is a very intriguing idea.> > Thank you, Clay.> > Yes, Mark is the “action man” with his repeated breathless reporting KAI> EUQUS…. Having heard Peter report these events again and again, he must> have gotten a mental picture like an “action replay” playback which he then> committed to paper as a direct, unrevised and uncorrected narrative. Far from> being the “uncouth abbreviator of Matthew”, Mark is the amanuensis of Peter.> Peter along with John were reported by Luke in Acts 4:13 as being ANQRWPOI> AGRAMMATOI… KAI IDIWTAI. Perhaps Mark was consciously or unconsciously> reproducing Peter’s Galilean fisherman’s preaching style?This is the sort of speculative discussion (on background details ofauthorship about which there is considerable controversy) that belongs, ifanywhere, on Synoptic-L rather than on .– Carl W. ConradCo-Chair, ListDepartment of Classics, Washington Universitycwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/

Mk 16:2 Constituent OrderComparing ALLOS and hETEROS (half-decent)