Mark 5:7

hORKIZW MK 5:7 c stirling bartholomew cc.constantine at worldnet.att.net
Sun Sep 22 17:43:45 EDT 2002

 

On 1 Corinthians 14:2 (WARNING) John 17 MARK 5:7 KAI KRAXAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI: TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOUQEOU TOU hUYISTOU; hORKIZW SE TON QEON, MH ME BASANISHiS.R.T. France (Mark, NIGTC) thinks that it is “surprising” that hORKIZW isused here in this way. Looks to me like irony. The demon(s) using thelanguage of magic and exorcism to exercise control over Jesus. Pretty funnyactually.just an observation.clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062

 

On 1 Corinthians 14:2 (WARNING)John 17

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sun Oct 1 02:43:46 EDT 2006

 

[] KAI…DE in Jn 8:17 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 TEXT KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU QEOU TOU hUYISTOU? ORKIZW SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS” And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you [Lit.: “What to me and to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I implore you by God that you not torment me.” I find this rather ironic that a demon possessing this man would thus beseech Christ in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly opposes (I know “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s another passage). Was the writer being humorous or is this simply a frozen usage in relation to ORKIZW? georgegfsomsel_________

 

[] KAI…DE in Jn 8:17[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Curtis Hinson curtis at curtishinson.com
Sun Oct 1 03:20:17 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 I wrote a paper on the Luke 8.26 account and it’s parallels once. There’s been some comment on the list in the past about the Aramaicism here, MaH LiY WaLaK, that might lead to some other commentary of interest.I did note UIE TOU QEOU TOU UYISTOU as a remarkably high form of address. Perhaps the demon is simply trying to use Jesus’ name/title in an effort to adjure/control him. Jesus throws that right back though in Mk 5.9, 5:9 και επηρωτα αυτον τι ονομα σοι… (KAI EPHRWTA AUTON TI ONOMA SOI).My full bibliography got lost in a harddrive crash but I found a few notes.Fitzmeyer, Joseph. The Gospel According to St. Luke I-IX. The Anchor Bible 28. New York: Doubleday, 1970.Koppenborg J.S. Excavating Q: The History and Setting of the Sayings Gospel. Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 2000.Allison. The Jesus Tradition in Q. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania: Trinity, 1997.Heirs. Binding and Loosing. JBL 104 June 1985. 233-250Kleist, James. The Gadarene Demoniacs. CBQ 9 no 1 Ja 1947, 101-105.Al-Jahiz, Omar bin Bahar, Kittab Al-Hayawan. (Cairo: Mustafa Al-Bai Al-Halabi and sons 1943), 309.Rubin, Uri, “Apes, Pigs, and the Islamic Identity,” Israel Oriental Studies XVII (1997), 93-102.Falastin Al-Muslima (London September 1996), series of articles, nu Ibrahim Al-‘Ali, 54-55.Luz, Ulrich, Die Jesusgeschichte de Matthäu (Neukirchen: Neukirchener Verlag 1993)See also Gospel of Thomas, the Arabic Infancy Gospel, Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs, and Book of Jubilees.Smith, Morton, Jesus the Magician, (New York and London, 1978), 71.This discussion could easily get far afield from list parameters.Bless the NameCurtis Hinsonhttp://curtishinson.comGeorge F Somsel wrote the following on 10/1/2006 1:43 AM:> TEXT> > KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU QEOU TOU hUYISTOU? ORKIZW SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”> > And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you [Lit.: “What to me and to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I implore you by God that you not torment me.” > > I find this rather ironic that a demon possessing this man would thus beseech Christ in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly opposes (I know “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s another passage). Was the writer being humorous or is this simply a frozen usage in relation to ORKIZW?> > george> gfsomsel> _________ > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > — My local weather at the time of this email:77F (25C), FairServer status: 01:48:01 up 28 days, 23:44, 1 user, load average: 0.07, 0.09, 0.08

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 William Ross woundedegomusic at gmail.com
Sun Oct 1 04:51:09 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Might SE TON QEON be a double accusative and might the point be:”This is not between you and me Jesus, son of the most high god. [Thedemon turns upward to address the god] I am appealing to YOU, the god,not to beseech me.”Mark 5:7Luke’s version, obviously, is different. If Mark amends Luke, then TONQEON is explanatory.William RossVGB, ArgentinaOn 10/1/06, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:> TEXT> > KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU QEOU TOU hUYISTOU? ORKIZW SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”> > And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you [Lit.: “What to me and to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I implore you by God that you not torment me.”> > I find this rather ironic that a demon possessing this man would thus beseech Christ in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly opposes (I know “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s another passage). Was the writer being humorous or is this simply a frozen usage in relation to ORKIZW?> > george> gfsomsel> _________> —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> — William RossVGB, Argentina

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Randall Buth randallbuth at gmail.com
Sun Oct 1 13:50:40 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Ephesians 1:13 Curtis ktav>I wrote a paper on the Luke 8.26 account and it’s parallels once.There’s been some comment on the list in the past about the Aramaicismhere, MaH LiY WaLaK, that might lead to some other commentary of interest.>Of course, FTR, this is a Hebrew idiom.”ma li valax” are the words of David and Elisha. yisge shlamaxRandall Buth– Randall Buth, PhDwww.biblicalulpan.orgχάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείηשלום לכם וברכותybitan at mscc.huji.ac.ilrandallbuth at gmail.com

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Ephesians 1:13

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Sun Oct 1 17:16:34 EDT 2006

 

[] inexpensive pocket-size Greek New Testament [] Etymology of Greek Words This was inadvertently sent only to the respondent. I am therefore sending it to the list as well. You would then take TON QEON as an appositive to SE. That is entirely possible, but I don’t think that is what was intended. You might take a look at Wallace, _Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics_, pp 204-05 where he deals with the use of the accusative in oaths. He specifically cites this passage. I don’t always agree with Wallace, but in this instance I do. georgegfsomsel_________ —– Original Message —-From: MDWatson <mdwatson at open.org>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>Sent: Sunday, October 1, 2006 4:06:34 PMSubject: Re: [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7I think the text shows that the demon knew that Jesus was not just anordinary man.Both SE and TON QEON are accusative and objects of ORKIZW.Justified by the demon’s fear of someone capable to torment him I’d renderthis:”I implore you, God, do not torment me!”Blessings,Mike Watson—– Original Message —–From: “George F Somsel” <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:43 PMSubject: [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7> TEXT> > KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU QEOU TOUhUYISTOU? ORKIZW SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”> > And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you [Lit.:“What to me and to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I implore you byGod that you not torment me.”> > I find this rather ironic that a demon possessing this man would thusbeseech Christ in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly opposes (I know”KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s anotherpassage). Was the writer being humorous or is this simply a frozen usage inrelation to ORKIZW?> > george> gfsomsel> _________

 

[] inexpensive pocket-size Greek New Testament[] Etymology of Greek Words

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Matthew Winzer mwinzer at pap.com.au
Sun Oct 1 20:31:50 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Perhaps the irony is something read into the text on the assumption thatdemons (devils) are strictly opposite to God. On the idea that they alsocarry out a judicial function under God, the request seems natural enough.Yours sincerely,Rev. Matthew Winzer—– Original Message —– From: “George F Somsel” <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 5:43 PMSubject: [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7> TEXT> > KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU QEOU TOU > hUYISTOU? ORKIZW SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”> > And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you [Lit.: > “What to me and to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I implore you > by God that you not torment me.”> > I find this rather ironic that a demon possessing this man would thus > beseech Christ in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly opposes (I know > “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s > another passage). Was the writer being humorous or is this simply a > frozen usage in relation to ORKIZW?> > george> gfsomsel> _________> —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > > — > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.11/460 – Release Date: 1/10/2006> >

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Sun Oct 1 23:04:28 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 —– Original Message —–From: “George F Somsel”> TEXT> > KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU > QEOU TOU> hUYISTOU? ORKIZW SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”> > And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you > [Lit.:> “What to me and to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I > implore you> by God that you not torment me.”> > I find this rather ironic that a demon possessing this man would thus> beseech Christ in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly opposes > (I know> “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s> another passage). Was the writer being humorous or is this simply a> frozen usage in relation to ORKIZW?Is ORKIZW … TON QEON found in pagan sources? LSJ cites this as a NT usage. My limited memory of oath taking in Attic and Homer is that the name or an epitaph of the deity is often used or in some cases QEWN. I don’t recall seeing it used with ORKIZW (as a verb).Another question, are TOU QEOU TOU hUYISTOU and TON QEON co- referential? We assume so because we read this from a monotheistic framework but should we assume that demons from Mark’s persective were theologically orthodox? OK, so it is an off-the-wall question.Elizabeth Kline

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Sun Oct 1 23:59:41 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 On Oct 1, 2006, at 8:04 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:> Is ORKIZW … TON QEON found in pagan sources? LSJ cites this as a NT> usage. My limited memory of oath taking in Attic and Homer is that> the name or an epitaph of the deity is often used or in some cases> QEWN. I don’t recall seeing it used with ORKIZW (as a verb).Searching TLG 8bc – 1bchORKON QEWN is fairly common e.g.,Homerus Od. 2.377… GRHUS DE QEWN MEGAN hORKON APWMNU.but I did not find hORKON QEU within eight words.Elizabeth Kline

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Mon Oct 2 00:17:18 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 On Oct 1, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:> >> Is ORKIZW … TON QEON found in pagan sources? LSJ cites this as a NT>> usage. My limited memory of oath taking in Attic and Homer is that>> the name or an epitaph of the deity is often used or in some cases>> QEWN. I don’t recall seeing it used with ORKIZW (as a verb).> > Searching TLG 8bc – 1bc> > hORKON QEWN is fairly common e.g.,> > Homerus Od. 2.377> … GRHUS DE QEWN MEGAN hORKON APWMNU.> > but I did not find hORKON QEOU (correction QEOU for QEU)but in Philo Judaeus Phil., Legum allegoriarum libri i-iii, Book 3, section 205, line 2:FASI GE MHN hORKON EINAI MARTURIAN QEOU PERI PRAGMATOS AMFISBHTOUMENOU:Not really what we are looking for is it.Elizabeth Kline

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Oct 2 06:11:32 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 On Oct 1, 2006, at 11:04 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:> —– Original Message —–> From: “George F Somsel”> > >> TEXT>> >> KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU>> QEOU TOU>> hUYISTOU? ORKIZW SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”>> >> And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you>> [Lit.:>> “What to me and to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I>> implore you>> by God that you not torment me.”>> >> I find this rather ironic that a demon possessing this man would thus>> beseech Christ in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly opposes>> (I know>> “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s>> another passage). Was the writer being humorous or is this simply a>> frozen usage in relation to ORKIZW?> > Is ORKIZW … TON QEON found in pagan sources? LSJ cites this as a NT> usage. My limited memory of oath taking in Attic and Homer is that> the name or an epitaph of the deityName, yes, but an epithet rather than an epitaph: deities are immortal, as Callimachus noted in his Hymn to Zeus (Hymn 1.8-9):KRHTES AEI YEUSTAI: KAI GAR TAFON, W ANA, SEIOKRHTES ETEKTAINANTO; SU D’ OU QANES, ESSI GAR AIEI.> is often used or in some cases> QEWN. I don’t recall seeing it used with ORKIZW (as a verb).> > > Another question, are TOU QEOU TOU hUYISTOU and TON QEON co-> referential? We assume so because we read this from a monotheistic> framework but should we assume that demons from Mark’s persective> were theologically orthodox? OK, so it is an off-the-wall question.Although that question does have a bearing on what we might expectMark to write, it’s not a question that should be dealt with in this forum.More to the point is the entry in BDAG on hORKIZW: it is commonlyused with an accusative of the one called upon to take an oath and asecond expression of the deity who is to validate and ensure enforcementof the oath; that second expression may be KATA + gen. or a secondaccusative. BDAG does cite a couple non-Christian texts with this usage.According to Hesiod, Theogony 775ff., the gods do take oaths by Styx,the icy river of the underworld; a god breaking his/her oath suffers a yearof death-like sleep followed by years of exile before resuming his/herplace among the gods.One might also look at Louw & Nida 33.467 hORKIZW,ENORKIZW, EPORKIZW.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Harold Holmyard hholmyard at ont.com
Mon Oct 2 14:24:16 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 George F Somsel wrote:> KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI> SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU QEOU TOU hUYISTOU? ORKIZW> SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”> > And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What> have I to do with you [Lit.: “What to me and> to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I> implore you by God that you not torment me.”> > I find this rather ironic that a demon> possessing this man would thus beseech Christ> in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly> opposes (I know “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN> KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s another> passage). Was the writer being humorous or is> this simply a frozen usage in relation to> ORKIZW?HH: I think the parallel in Matt 8:29 clarifies the matter a bit:Matt. 8:29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”HH: Apparently God has set a time when he will punish the fallen angels. It is a time the parties involved know, and they recognized Jesus’ first incarnation was not that time. So the demons apparently appealed to God’s expressed will in this matter.Yours,Harold Holmyard> > george gfsomsel _________ — home> page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ > mailing list at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > .>

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Oct 2 14:53:59 EDT 2006

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 [] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7 On Oct 2, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Harold Holmyard wrote:> George F Somsel wrote:> >> KAI KRACAS FWNHi MEGALHi LEGEI, “TI EMOI KAI>> SOI, IHSOU hUIE TOU QEOU TOU hUYISTOU? ORKIZW>> SE TON QEON MH ME BASANISHiS”>> >> And crying out in a loud voice he said, “What>> have I to do with you [Lit.: “What to me and>> to you”], Jesus Son of the most high God? I>> implore you by God that you not torment me.”>> >> I find this rather ironic that a demon>> possessing this man would thus beseech Christ>> in the VERY NAME OF GOD whom he supposedly>> opposes (I know “KAI TA DAIMONIA PISTEUOUSIN>> KAI FRISSOUSIN” (Jas 2.19), but that’s another>> passage). Was the writer being humorous or is>> this simply a frozen usage in relation to>> ORKIZW?> > HH: I think the parallel in Matt 8:29 clarifies> the matter a bit:> > Matt. 8:29 “What do you want with us, Son of> God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to> torture us before the appointed time?”> > HH: Apparently God has set a time when he will> punish the fallen angels. It is a time the parties> involved know, and they recognized Jesus’ first> incarnation was not that time. So the demons> apparently appealed to God’s expressed will in> this matter.Of course, the only thing that Matthew’s accountclarifies is how Matthew interpreted the incident.To assume that it clarifies Mark’s account dependsupon hermeneutical conceptions which are outsidethe limits of list-discussion.>> george gfsomsel _________ — home>> page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ >> mailing list at lists.ibiblio.org>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>> >> >> .>> > > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

 

[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7[] Humor or a frozen expression? Mk 5.7