Mt 21:31 Jim West jwest at Highland.Net
Sat Mar 6 11:28:09 EST 1999
Mt 18:18 Pluperfect Give God glory! What think ye….does “oi telwnai kai ai pronai proagousin umas eis thn basileian tou qeou”imply that the Pharisees will get in- just behind the wretched hordes; or isthere no such implication intended?Thanks,j.+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDQuartz Hill School of Theologyjwest at highland.netBiblical Studies Resources at:http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Mt 18:18 PluperfectGive God glory!
Mt 21:31 Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com
Sat Mar 6 18:00:49 EST 1999
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 Give God glory! proagousin?This appears to be a good Biblical model for selecting spiritual “leaders.”:-]—–Original Message—–From: Jim West [mailto:jwest at Highland.Net]Sent: Saturday, March 06, 1999 10:28 AMTo: Biblical GreekSubject: Mt 21:31What think ye….does “oi telwnai kai ai pronai proagousin umas eis thn basileian tou qeou”imply that the Pharisees will get in- just behind the wretched hordes; or isthere no such implication intended?Thanks,j.+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThD
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35Give God glory!
Mt 21:31 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun Mar 7 21:18:09 EST 1999
Greek NT editions available for purchase Ephesians 2:4-10 At 4:28 PM +0000 3/6/99, Jim West wrote:>What think ye….> >does “oi telwnai kai ai pronai proagousin umas eis thn basileian tou qeou”>imply that the Pharisees will get in- just behind the wretched hordes; or is>there no such implication intended?After scratching my head for a while wondering whether this was talkingabout “tax-collectors and prawns,” then checking the original text andreading hOI TELWNAI KAI hAI PORNAI, I see that it’s street-walkers ratherthan sea-floor scavengers in question here.While you may be right about the tone of the verse, Jim, you probablyshould bear in mind what Mt’s Jesus says in Mt 5:20: EAN MH PERISSEUHihUMWN hH DIKAIOSUNH PLEION TWN GRAMMATEWN KAI FARISAIWN, OU MH EISELQHTEEIS THN BASILEIAN TWN OURANWN. If one puts these two sayings together, onemight even be inclined to suspect that (1) the tax-collectors andstreet-walkers will be ushered in first, then (2) the scribes andPharisees, and lastly (3) the rest of us who listen to Jesus carefully butwhose DIKAIOSUNH is only fair-to-middlin’.It’s always struck me that even Matthew, who gets a bum rap for humorlessformalism of expression, (a) shows a Jesus with a remarkable sense ofhumor, and (b) gives expression to what A.N. Whitehead called “a moralityof aspiration” in very powerful terms, inasmuch as he awards the highestcongratulations to those “who hunger and thirst for righteousness,” andinasmuch as he bids us be “perfect, even as your Father in Heaven isperfect.”Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Greek NT editions available for purchaseEphesians 2:4-10
Mt 21:31 Jim West jwest at Highland.Net
Sat Mar 6 11:28:09 EST 1999
Mt 18:18 Pluperfect Give God glory! What think ye….does “oi telwnai kai ai pronai proagousin umas eis thn basileian tou qeou”imply that the Pharisees will get in- just behind the wretched hordes; or isthere no such implication intended?Thanks,j.+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThDQuartz Hill School of Theologyjwest at highland.netBiblical Studies Resources at:http://web.infoave.net/~jwest
Mt 18:18 PluperfectGive God glory!
Mt 21:31 Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com
Sat Mar 6 18:00:49 EST 1999
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 Give God glory! proagousin?This appears to be a good Biblical model for selecting spiritual “leaders.”:-]—–Original Message—–From: Jim West [mailto:jwest at Highland.Net]Sent: Saturday, March 06, 1999 10:28 AMTo: Biblical GreekSubject: Mt 21:31What think ye….does “oi telwnai kai ai pronai proagousin umas eis thn basileian tou qeou”imply that the Pharisees will get in- just behind the wretched hordes; or isthere no such implication intended?Thanks,j.+++++++++++++++++++++++++Jim West, ThD
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35Give God glory!
Mt 21:31 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun Mar 7 21:18:09 EST 1999
Greek NT editions available for purchase Ephesians 2:4-10 At 4:28 PM +0000 3/6/99, Jim West wrote:>What think ye….> >does “oi telwnai kai ai pronai proagousin umas eis thn basileian tou qeou”>imply that the Pharisees will get in- just behind the wretched hordes; or is>there no such implication intended?After scratching my head for a while wondering whether this was talkingabout “tax-collectors and prawns,” then checking the original text andreading hOI TELWNAI KAI hAI PORNAI, I see that it’s street-walkers ratherthan sea-floor scavengers in question here.While you may be right about the tone of the verse, Jim, you probablyshould bear in mind what Mt’s Jesus says in Mt 5:20: EAN MH PERISSEUHihUMWN hH DIKAIOSUNH PLEION TWN GRAMMATEWN KAI FARISAIWN, OU MH EISELQHTEEIS THN BASILEIAN TWN OURANWN. If one puts these two sayings together, onemight even be inclined to suspect that (1) the tax-collectors andstreet-walkers will be ushered in first, then (2) the scribes andPharisees, and lastly (3) the rest of us who listen to Jesus carefully butwhose DIKAIOSUNH is only fair-to-middlin’.It’s always struck me that even Matthew, who gets a bum rap for humorlessformalism of expression, (a) shows a Jesus with a remarkable sense ofhumor, and (b) gives expression to what A.N. Whitehead called “a moralityof aspiration” in very powerful terms, inasmuch as he awards the highestcongratulations to those “who hunger and thirst for righteousness,” andinasmuch as he bids us be “perfect, even as your Father in Heaven isperfect.”Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cconrad at yancey.main.nc.usWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Greek NT editions available for purchaseEphesians 2:4-10
Give God glory! John M. Moe John.M.Moe-1 at tc.umn.edu
Sat Mar 6 12:03:15 EST 1999
Mt 21:31 Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 At John 9:24 the Net Translation (www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm) hasthe following note”ÒGive glory to GodÓ (an idiomatic formula used in placing someone underoath to tell the truth). “–My experience has been that this translation and its notes are usuallywell and carefully done. However, my search of the LXX for DONXON TWiQEWi, renders only Ps. Ps. 67:35 Ps. 68:35 M, Ps 68:34 English. Asimilar search of the UBS 4th ed. yields: Luke 17:18, John 9:24, Acts12:23, Rom 4:20, Rev 11:13. All are about giving glory to God, but none(unless it be granted at John 9:24) are in an oath context.My question: Are others aware of this as an “idiomatic formula used inplacing someone under oath to tell the truth)”? Is it used that way inextra biblical texts of which I am unaware?With their “Promise before God to tell the truth” for DOS DOXAN TWi QEWithis usually careful translation seem to have moved farther towardinterpretation than they normally do and I’m baffled to figure out why.ThanksJMRev. John M. MoeSt. John’s Lutheran Church, Rich Valleyhttp://www.state.net/sjrv/
Mt 21:31Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35
Give God glory! John M. Moe John.M.Moe-1 at tc.umn.edu
Sat Mar 6 12:03:15 EST 1999
Mt 21:31 Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 At John 9:24 the Net Translation (www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm) hasthe following note”ÒGive glory to GodÓ (an idiomatic formula used in placing someone underoath to tell the truth). “–My experience has been that this translation and its notes are usuallywell and carefully done. However, my search of the LXX for DONXON TWiQEWi, renders only Ps. Ps. 67:35 Ps. 68:35 M, Ps 68:34 English. Asimilar search of the UBS 4th ed. yields: Luke 17:18, John 9:24, Acts12:23, Rom 4:20, Rev 11:13. All are about giving glory to God, but none(unless it be granted at John 9:24) are in an oath context.My question: Are others aware of this as an “idiomatic formula used inplacing someone under oath to tell the truth)”? Is it used that way inextra biblical texts of which I am unaware?With their “Promise before God to tell the truth” for DOS DOXAN TWi QEWithis usually careful translation seem to have moved farther towardinterpretation than they normally do and I’m baffled to figure out why.ThanksJMRev. John M. MoeSt. John’s Lutheran Church, Rich Valleyhttp://www.state.net/sjrv/
Mt 21:31Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35
Give God glory! TonyProst at aol.com TonyProst at aol.com
Sat Mar 6 18:11:08 EST 1999
Mt 21:31 Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 For what it’s worth, Nonnos of Panopolis, c. 450 AD, paraphrases this asfollows:IX:127-128dos, tekos, hupsimedonti theo^i charin, hos se sao^sasophthalmo^n pore pheggos….Regards,Tony ProstAll Nonnos All Dayhttp://members.aol.com/tonyprost/index.html
Mt 21:31Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35
Give God glory! TonyProst at aol.com TonyProst at aol.com
Sat Mar 6 18:11:08 EST 1999
Mt 21:31 Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 For what it’s worth, Nonnos of Panopolis, c. 450 AD, paraphrases this asfollows:IX:127-128dos, tekos, hupsimedonti theo^i charin, hos se sao^sasophthalmo^n pore pheggos….Regards,Tony ProstAll Nonnos All Dayhttp://members.aol.com/tonyprost/index.html
Mt 21:31Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35
Give God glory! James S. Murray jsmurray at execpc.com
Sat Mar 6 21:03:32 EST 1999
Are participles temporally unmarked? Give God glory! John M. Moe wrote:> > > At John 9:24 the Net Translation (www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm) has> the following note> “ÒGive glory to GodÓ (an idiomatic formula used in placing someone under> oath to tell the truth). “–> My experience has been that this translation and its notes are usually> well and carefully done. However, my search of the LXX for DONXON TWi> QEWi, renders only Ps. Ps. 67:35 Ps. 68:35 M, Ps 68:34 English. A> similar search of the UBS 4th ed. yields: Luke 17:18, John 9:24, Acts> 12:23, Rom 4:20, Rev 11:13. All are about giving glory to God, but none> (unless it be granted at John 9:24) are in an oath context.> > My question: Are others aware of this as an “idiomatic formula used in> placing someone under oath to tell the truth)”? Is it used that way in> extra biblical texts of which I am unaware?> > With their “Promise before God to tell the truth” for DOS DOXAN TWi QEWi> this usually careful translation seem to have moved farther toward> interpretation than they normally do and I’m baffled to figure out why.> > Thanks> > JM> > Rev. John M. Moe> St. John’s Lutheran Church, Rich Valley> http://www.state.net/sjrv/> > —> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> You are currently subscribed to as: jsmurray at execpc.com> To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave–79605N at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.eduFor the O.T., Joshua 7:19 quite clearly has this meaning. In eithercase, given the context of both passages, to take DOXA as praise in theusual sense doesn’t make much sense. What I’ve been wondering, though, is whether DOUS DOXAN TWi QEWi in Rom.4:20 also has this sense of “telling the truth”. In this case, I wouldunderstand passage as saying that Abraham was empowered in faith as hetold the truth about what God had done for him. Does anyone else have any thoughts as to this possible translation inRom 4:20?James MurrayRacine, WI
Are participles temporally unmarked?Give God glory!
Give God glory! James S. Murray jsmurray at execpc.com
Sat Mar 6 21:03:32 EST 1999
Are participles temporally unmarked? Give God glory! John M. Moe wrote:> > > At John 9:24 the Net Translation (www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm) has> the following note> “ÒGive glory to GodÓ (an idiomatic formula used in placing someone under> oath to tell the truth). “–> My experience has been that this translation and its notes are usually> well and carefully done. However, my search of the LXX for DONXON TWi> QEWi, renders only Ps. Ps. 67:35 Ps. 68:35 M, Ps 68:34 English. A> similar search of the UBS 4th ed. yields: Luke 17:18, John 9:24, Acts> 12:23, Rom 4:20, Rev 11:13. All are about giving glory to God, but none> (unless it be granted at John 9:24) are in an oath context.> > My question: Are others aware of this as an “idiomatic formula used in> placing someone under oath to tell the truth)”? Is it used that way in> extra biblical texts of which I am unaware?> > With their “Promise before God to tell the truth” for DOS DOXAN TWi QEWi> this usually careful translation seem to have moved farther toward> interpretation than they normally do and I’m baffled to figure out why.> > Thanks> > JM> > Rev. John M. Moe> St. John’s Lutheran Church, Rich Valley> http://www.state.net/sjrv/> > —> home page: http://sunsite.unc.edu/> You are currently subscribed to as: jsmurray at execpc.com> To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave–79605N at franklin.oit.unc.edu> To subscribe, send a message to subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.eduFor the O.T., Joshua 7:19 quite clearly has this meaning. In eithercase, given the context of both passages, to take DOXA as praise in theusual sense doesn’t make much sense. What I’ve been wondering, though, is whether DOUS DOXAN TWi QEWi in Rom.4:20 also has this sense of “telling the truth”. In this case, I wouldunderstand passage as saying that Abraham was empowered in faith as hetold the truth about what God had done for him. Does anyone else have any thoughts as to this possible translation inRom 4:20?James MurrayRacine, WI
Are participles temporally unmarked?Give God glory!
Give God glory! Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com
Sat Mar 6 21:24:53 EST 1999
Give God glory! 1 John 4:13 translation questioned {James}What I’ve been wondering, though, is whether DOUS DOXAN TWi QEWi in Rom.4:20 also has this sense of “telling the truth”. In this case, I wouldunderstand passage as saying that Abraham was empowered in faith as hetold the truth about what God had done for him.Does anyone else have any thoughts as to this possible translation inRom 4:20?{Bill}”Glory” is an enigmatic word in both English and Greek. I tend to see it asan opposite of “despise” or “having a low opinion of.” If I’m correct thatDOXA is related to DOKIA “opinion,” might both Abraham’s unhesitating faithand the surrendering to God’s Truth be examples of giving God “glory” in thesense of exhibiting an “exalted opinion of Him and His power?”The Scriptures show a consistent relationship to our opinion of God and ourbehavior:Proverbs 14:2 He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but he that isperverse in his ways despiseth him.You might say “giving glory” is “giving credit” in a profound sense:Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neitherwere thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolishheart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,So, I think your translation is good, as well as your observation.
Give God glory!1 John 4:13 translation questioned
Give God glory! Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com
Sat Mar 6 21:24:53 EST 1999
Give God glory! 1 John 4:13 translation questioned {James}What I’ve been wondering, though, is whether DOUS DOXAN TWi QEWi in Rom.4:20 also has this sense of “telling the truth”. In this case, I wouldunderstand passage as saying that Abraham was empowered in faith as hetold the truth about what God had done for him.Does anyone else have any thoughts as to this possible translation inRom 4:20?{Bill}”Glory” is an enigmatic word in both English and Greek. I tend to see it asan opposite of “despise” or “having a low opinion of.” If I’m correct thatDOXA is related to DOKIA “opinion,” might both Abraham’s unhesitating faithand the surrendering to God’s Truth be examples of giving God “glory” in thesense of exhibiting an “exalted opinion of Him and His power?”The Scriptures show a consistent relationship to our opinion of God and ourbehavior:Proverbs 14:2 He that walketh in his uprightness feareth the LORD: but he that isperverse in his ways despiseth him.You might say “giving glory” is “giving credit” in a profound sense:Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neitherwere thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolishheart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,So, I think your translation is good, as well as your observation.
Give God glory!1 John 4:13 translation questioned
Give God glory! George Blaisdell maqhth at hotmail.com
Sun Mar 7 02:15:29 EST 1999
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 Searching the archive with multiple keywords?? >{James} writes:>What I’ve been wondering, though, is whether DOUS DOXAN TWi QEWi in Rom.>4:20 also has this sense of “telling the truth”. In this case, I would>understand passage as saying that Abraham was empowered in faith as he>told the truth about what God had done for him.> >Does anyone else have any thoughts as to this possible translation in>Rom 4:20?Well, one of the meanings of glorify is to make something VERY APPARENT. Thus in this ‘oath context’, telling the truth would make God very apparent, and anything other than the truth would not!Just a thought…GeorgeGeorge BlaisdellRoslyn, WA______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35Searching the archive with multiple keywords??
Give God glory! George Blaisdell maqhth at hotmail.com
Sun Mar 7 02:15:29 EST 1999
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35 Searching the archive with multiple keywords?? >{James} writes:>What I’ve been wondering, though, is whether DOUS DOXAN TWi QEWi in Rom.>4:20 also has this sense of “telling the truth”. In this case, I would>understand passage as saying that Abraham was empowered in faith as he>told the truth about what God had done for him.> >Does anyone else have any thoughts as to this possible translation in>Rom 4:20?Well, one of the meanings of glorify is to make something VERY APPARENT. Thus in this ‘oath context’, telling the truth would make God very apparent, and anything other than the truth would not!Just a thought…GeorgeGeorge BlaisdellRoslyn, WA______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Are participles temporally unmarked? Mk 1:35Searching the archive with multiple keywords??
Give God glory! Williams, Wes Wes.Williams at echostar.com
Sun Mar 7 12:03:46 EST 1999
Philadelphia relative to Agape Discourse Spans (hierarchy) “John M. Moe” wrote:<<At John 9:24 the Net Translation (www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm) hasthe following note”Give glory to God” (an idiomatic formula used in placing someone underoath to tell the truth). “–My experience has been that this translation and its notes are usuallywell and carefully done. However, my search of the LXX for DONXON TWiQEWi, renders only Ps. Ps. 67:35 Ps. 68:35 M, Ps 68:34 English. Asimilar search of the UBS 4th ed. yields: Luke 17:18, John 9:24, Acts12:23, Rom 4:20, Rev 11:13. All are about giving glory to God, but none(unless it be granted at John 9:24) are in an oath context.My question: Are others aware of this as an “idiomatic formula used inplacing someone under oath to tell the truth)”? Is it used that way inextra biblical texts of which I am unaware?<<John,The precision of the wording they intend for “idiomatic formula” is unclear.Joshua 7:19 expresses the thought but not the precise wording when it says:DOS DOXAN SHMERON TWi KURIWi QEWi ISRAHL(give glory this day to the Lord God of Israel)The context, where Joshua is about to ask Achan what bad thing he did, isone where it could be argued that an “oath” of truthfulness was involved.Still, we really get the thought of “oath” from this context and not thewords themselves or its use, do we not? I’m out of time right now but if youfind other support, please share it.Sincerely,Wes Williams
Philadelphia relative to AgapeDiscourse Spans (hierarchy)
Give God glory! Williams, Wes Wes.Williams at echostar.com
Sun Mar 7 12:03:46 EST 1999
Philadelphia relative to Agape Discourse Spans (hierarchy) “John M. Moe” wrote:<<At John 9:24 the Net Translation (www.bible.org/netbible/index.htm) hasthe following note”Give glory to God” (an idiomatic formula used in placing someone underoath to tell the truth). “–My experience has been that this translation and its notes are usuallywell and carefully done. However, my search of the LXX for DONXON TWiQEWi, renders only Ps. Ps. 67:35 Ps. 68:35 M, Ps 68:34 English. Asimilar search of the UBS 4th ed. yields: Luke 17:18, John 9:24, Acts12:23, Rom 4:20, Rev 11:13. All are about giving glory to God, but none(unless it be granted at John 9:24) are in an oath context.My question: Are others aware of this as an “idiomatic formula used inplacing someone under oath to tell the truth)”? Is it used that way inextra biblical texts of which I am unaware?<<John,The precision of the wording they intend for “idiomatic formula” is unclear.Joshua 7:19 expresses the thought but not the precise wording when it says:DOS DOXAN SHMERON TWi KURIWi QEWi ISRAHL(give glory this day to the Lord God of Israel)The context, where Joshua is about to ask Achan what bad thing he did, isone where it could be argued that an “oath” of truthfulness was involved.Still, we really get the thought of “oath” from this context and not thewords themselves or its use, do we not? I’m out of time right now but if youfind other support, please share it.Sincerely,Wes Williams
Philadelphia relative to AgapeDiscourse Spans (hierarchy)