Matthew 22:34

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[bible passage=”Matthew 22:34″]

If “to auto” here does not refer to Jesus being neuter who/what does it refer to?

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34 thoughts on “Matthew 22:34”

  1. George F Somsel says:

    I had forgotten about that.  Iver is correct.  See Acts 2.1 as well.  george gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus _________

    ________________________________ Biblical Greek’ Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 8:50:01 PM

    Sent: 8. december 2010 22:56

    TO

    It refers to a place, they gather in the same place, i.e. together. It is an idiom.

    of place: at the same place, together (En 100:2; Jos., Bell. 2, 346; s. συνέρχομαι 1a) Mt 22:34; 1 Cor 11:20; 14:23; B 4:10; IEph 5:3; εἶναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. (TestNapht 6:6) Lk 17:35; Ac 1:15; 2:1. προστιθέναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. add to the total Ac 2:47 (see M-M.). κατὰ τὸ αυ. of pers. being together as a body in each other’s company, together (PEleph 1, 5 εἶναι δὲ ἡμᾶς κατὰ ταὐτό) and also with ref. to simultaneous presence at the same time (Aelian, VH 14, 8 δύο εἰκόνας εἰργάσατο Πολύκλειτος κατὰ τ. αὐ.; 3 Km 3:18)

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (153). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  4. Oun Kwon says:

    I wonder why I should buy an opinion of BDAG rather than FWSFOROS (his is more enlightening)? Isn’t it enough to see the text just say ‘When they gather together’? What does the idiomatic phrase in a locative sense says more than what the text says?

    In this particular example in 1Co 7:5, many English translations actually omit it, while a few seems take it as ‘purpose’ when paraphrasing (as in NET ‘…. resume your relationship’).

    Oun Kwon.

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  5. Michael Baber says:

    Yes, you could even say his opinion is “brilliant.” *snort, snort*

    — On Sat, 12/11/10, Oun Kwon wrote:

    I wonder why I should buy an opinion of BDAG rather than FWSFOROS (his is more enlightening)?   Isn’t it enough to see the text just say ‘When they gather together’? What does the idiomatic phrase in a locative sense says more than what the text says?

    In this particular example in 1Co 7:5, many English translations actually omit it, while a few seems take it as ‘purpose’ when paraphrasing (as in NET ‘…. resume your relationship’).

    Oun Kwon.

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  6. "Iver Larsen" says:

    —– Original Message —– Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07

    That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words, literally “at the same (place)”, but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as such it simply means “together”. There is no need to look for a neuter antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates the idiom as “together”.

    I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes it implicit in “unless you agree not to have sex for a little while”. Since it is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: “marital relations” and NET: “your relationship”. NET’s “resume” translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion, the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal “be together again” should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  7. Mark Lightman says:

    Iver wrote

    Hi, Iver,

    I think what happened is that Oun’s suggestion “for the same purpose” reminded me of Blue Harris’ recent post

    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-September/054419.html

    and that post rubbed me the right way.

    Mark L Φωσφορος

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

    ________________________________ Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:41:57 PM

    Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07

    That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words, literally “at the same (place)”, but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as such it simply means “together”. There is no need to look for a neuter antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates the idiom as “together”.

    I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes it implicit in “unless you agree not to have sex for a little while”. Since it is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: “marital relations” and NET: “your relationship”. NET’s “resume” translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion, the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal “be together again” should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  8. George F Somsel says:

    There is a use of ἐπί EPI + acc to indicate purpose, but I hardly think it is feasible that such is the use here.  BDAG indicates this with an example ἐπὶ τὸ βάπτισμα EPI TO BAPTISMA “for baptism” or “to have themselves baptized.”  If you try to use that function here you end up with “for the same …” what?  You end up having to supply “purpose” and then end up wondering what purpose that might be.  It is a much more likely that it means simply that they gathered together by themselves or alone. 

     george gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus _________

    ________________________________ Greek’ Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 6:02:13 AM

    Iver wrote

    Hi, Iver,

    I think what happened is that Oun’s suggestion “for the same purpose” reminded me of Blue Harris’ recent post

    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-September/054419.html

    and that post rubbed me the right way.

    Mark L Φωσφορος

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

    ________________________________ Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:41:57 PM

    Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07

    That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words, literally “at the same (place)”, but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as such it simply means “together”. There is no need to look for a neuter antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is

    there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates the idiom as “together”.

    I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes it implicit in “unless you agree not to have sex for a little while”. Since it is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special

    time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: “marital relations” and NET: “your relationship”. NET’s “resume” translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion, the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in

    this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal “be together again” should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

          — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  11. Oun Kwon says:

    My reply below just to answer your specific questions.

    Oun Kwon

    nor

    OJK:

    1Co 11:18 – ‘for the purpose of eating’ – Wuest; [Most omits – NAB, NASB, ESV, RSV, etc.] Act 4:26 – ‘for the very same purpose’ – SourceNT

    while”. devoted situations. be clear isolation,

    OJK: Aren’t they examples of the nuance of ‘purpose’, unless of course if we discard the phrase as unnecessary (in English) idiomatic expression?

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

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  12. George F Somsel says:

    I suppose if you are determined to read purpose into this you can be one of the very few who find such in it.  Not only will you then be one of a very few who find purpose in this passage but also in any such construction.  I suppose you know more about Greek and its idioms than Danker. 

     george gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus _________

    ________________________________ Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 2:08:41 PM

    Why! What purpose? Read the context!

    Mt 22:34 the Pharisees’ purpose (or intent) is same as the Sadducees’. To challenge/test/trap.

    Oun Kwon. — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  13. Oun Kwon says:

    [Let’s stay away from being personal. I’m just 120 pounds chip sitting at the desk ;-<] Are you saying that BDAG is correct in all and every time? I let myself check as many places as it occurs in NT to see this particular phrase EPI TO AUTO and then get the feel of it - of course, some are to be locative and some are to be "redundant" [redundant to tell locative sense?]. And you say it can NOT be telic? Why? Idiom is idiom. Does it violate some linguistic principles which BDAG has in its keeping? BTW, by reading it locative, there is one single place in NT where it drives people in exegetical (? eisegetical) hodgepodge - Act 2:1 ( 'gathered at the same place' - At what place did they gather at the Pentecost?). Oun Kwon --- B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

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  14. George F Somsel says:

    Matthew 22:34 (NA27) 34Οἱ δὲ Φαρισαῖοι ἀκούσαντες ὅτι ἐφίμωσεν τοὺς Σαδδουκαίους συνήχθησαν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό,

    34 hOI DE FARISAIOI AKOUSANTES hOTI EFIMWSEN TOUS SADDOUKAIOUS SUNXQHSAN EPI TO AUTO.   The TO AUTO has been used as indicating “by him / them-self(s)” and references the Pharisees — “they gathered together by themselves.”

     george gfsomsel

      Reply
  15. George F Somsel says:

    I had forgotten about that.  Iver is correct.  See Acts 2.1 as well.  george gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus _________

    ________________________________ Biblical Greek’ Sent: Wed, December 8, 2010 8:50:01 PM

    Sent: 8. december 2010 22:56

    TO

    It refers to a place, they gather in the same place, i.e. together. It is an idiom.

    of place: at the same place, together (En 100:2; Jos., Bell. 2, 346; s. συνέρχομαι 1a) Mt 22:34; 1 Cor 11:20; 14:23; B 4:10; IEph 5:3; εἶναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. (TestNapht 6:6) Lk 17:35; Ac 1:15; 2:1. προστιθέναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. add to the total Ac 2:47 (see M-M.). κατὰ τὸ αυ. of pers. being together as a body in each other’s company, together (PEleph 1, 5 εἶναι δὲ ἡμᾶς κατὰ ταὐτό) and also with ref. to simultaneous presence at the same time (Aelian, VH 14, 8 δύο εἰκόνας εἰργάσατο Πολύκλειτος κατὰ τ. αὐ.; 3 Km 3:18)

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (153). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  17. George F Somsel says:

    Matthew 22:34 (NA27) 34Οἱ δὲ Φαρισαῖοι ἀκούσαντες ὅτι ἐφίμωσεν τοὺς Σαδδουκαίους συνήχθησαν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτό,

    34 hOI DE FARISAIOI AKOUSANTES hOTI EFIMWSEN TOUS SADDOUKAIOUS SUNXQHSAN EPI TO AUTO.   The TO AUTO has been used as indicating “by him / them-self(s)” and references the Pharisees — “they gathered together by themselves.”

     george gfsomsel

      Reply
  18. "Iver Larsen" says:

    It refers to a place, they gather in the same place, i.e. together. It is an idiom.

    of place: at the same place, together (En 100:2; Jos., Bell. 2, 346; s. συνέρχομαι 1a) Mt 22:34; 1 Cor 11:20; 14:23; B 4:10; IEph 5:3; εἶναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. (TestNapht 6:6) Lk 17:35; Ac 1:15; 2:1. προστιθέναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. add to the total Ac 2:47 (see M-M.). κατὰ τὸ αυ. of pers. being together as a body in each other’s company, together (PEleph 1, 5 εἶναι δὲ ἡμᾶς κατὰ ταὐτό) and also with ref. to simultaneous presence at the same time (Aelian, VH 14, 8 δύο εἰκόνας εἰργάσατο Πολύκλειτος κατὰ τ. αὐ.; 3 Km 3:18)

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (153). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    Iver Larsen

    How precise is Greek? ( was Matthew 22:34)

    Hi Mark,   I tend to agree with you and Oun, although no one can deny that many times simple location is indicated, and may, indeed, be so in this verse.    Nevertheless, it does seem there is one translation, the NLT, that might have also been trying to also bring out the idea of purpose.   Matthew 22:34But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees with his reply, they met together *to question him again.*   What is interesting is that apparently, sometimes, the underlying Hebrew word in the LXX for EPI TO AUTO is yachad, and yachad sometimes seems to carry an additional sense of purpose.  For example, consider the following verse.    Psalm 133:1How wonderful and pleasant it is when brothers live together in harmony! (NLT)   Psalm 133:1Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity! (NASB)    This verse is translated by the LXX as follows:   PSALM 132:1 WiDH TWN ANABAQMWN TWi DAUID IDOU DH TI KALON H TI TERPNON ALL᾽ H TO KATOIKEIN ADELFOUS EPI TO AUTO   Here are a few more examples where it seems to me EPI TO AUTO can carry the idea of  *for the same thing,* or *for the same purpose* –   JOSHUA 11:5 KAI SUNHLQON PANTES hOI BASILEIS hOUTOI KAI PAREGENONTO EPI TO AUTO KAI PARENEBALON EPI TOU hUDATOS MARRWN POLEMHSAI TON ISRAHL   And all these kings came together and arrived united in purpose, and they encamped at the waters of Maron to war against Israel.    NEHEMIAH 4:2 (4:8) KAI SUNHCQHSAN PANTES EPI TO AUTO ELQEIN PARATAXASQAI EN IEROUSALHM   And all of them assembled together for the same thing, to come, to do battle in Jerusalem.   However, after all that being said, that is not the actual reason I am writing.   As seen by the difference of opinion concerning how EPI TO AUTO should be rendered in English, I was wondering what your opinion would be of the following statement (generally speaking)? “Greek is less ambiguous than Hebrew, however, Latin is less ambiguous than Greek and English is less ambiguous than them all.”

      May you and all have a blessed Lord’s Day,   Blue Harris   P.S. Is Denver playing? : > )

    ________________________________ From: Mark Lightman To: Iver Larsen ; Oun Kwon ; Biblical Greek’ Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 5:02:13 AM Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 22:34

    Iver wrote

    Hi, Iver,

    I think what happened is that Oun’s suggestion “for the same purpose” reminded me of Blue Harris’ recent post

    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-September/054419.html

    and that post rubbed me the right way.

    Mark L Φωσφορος

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

      Reply
  20. "Iver Larsen" says:

    It refers to a place, they gather in the same place, i.e. together. It is an idiom.

    of place: at the same place, together (En 100:2; Jos., Bell. 2, 346; s. συνέρχομαι 1a) Mt 22:34; 1 Cor 11:20; 14:23; B 4:10; IEph 5:3; εἶναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. (TestNapht 6:6) Lk 17:35; Ac 1:15; 2:1. προστιθέναι ἐπὶ τὸ αὐ. add to the total Ac 2:47 (see M-M.). κατὰ τὸ αυ. of pers. being together as a body in each other’s company, together (PEleph 1, 5 εἶναι δὲ ἡμᾶς κατὰ ταὐτό) and also with ref. to simultaneous presence at the same time (Aelian, VH 14, 8 δύο εἰκόνας εἰργάσατο Πολύκλειτος κατὰ τ. αὐ.; 3 Km 3:18)

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (153). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    Iver Larsen

    How precise is Greek? ( was Matthew 22:34)

    Hi Mark,   I tend to agree with you and Oun, although no one can deny that many times simple location is indicated, and may, indeed, be so in this verse.    Nevertheless, it does seem there is one translation, the NLT, that might have also been trying to also bring out the idea of purpose.   Matthew 22:34But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees with his reply, they met together *to question him again.*   What is interesting is that apparently, sometimes, the underlying Hebrew word in the LXX for EPI TO AUTO is yachad, and yachad sometimes seems to carry an additional sense of purpose.  For example, consider the following verse.    Psalm 133:1How wonderful and pleasant it is when brothers live together in harmony! (NLT)   Psalm 133:1Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brothers to dwell together in unity! (NASB)    This verse is translated by the LXX as follows:   PSALM 132:1 WiDH TWN ANABAQMWN TWi DAUID IDOU DH TI KALON H TI TERPNON ALL᾽ H TO KATOIKEIN ADELFOUS EPI TO AUTO   Here are a few more examples where it seems to me EPI TO AUTO can carry the idea of  *for the same thing,* or *for the same purpose* –   JOSHUA 11:5 KAI SUNHLQON PANTES hOI BASILEIS hOUTOI KAI PAREGENONTO EPI TO AUTO KAI PARENEBALON EPI TOU hUDATOS MARRWN POLEMHSAI TON ISRAHL   And all these kings came together and arrived united in purpose, and they encamped at the waters of Maron to war against Israel.    NEHEMIAH 4:2 (4:8) KAI SUNHCQHSAN PANTES EPI TO AUTO ELQEIN PARATAXASQAI EN IEROUSALHM   And all of them assembled together for the same thing, to come, to do battle in Jerusalem.   However, after all that being said, that is not the actual reason I am writing.   As seen by the difference of opinion concerning how EPI TO AUTO should be rendered in English, I was wondering what your opinion would be of the following statement (generally speaking)? “Greek is less ambiguous than Hebrew, however, Latin is less ambiguous than Greek and English is less ambiguous than them all.”

      May you and all have a blessed Lord’s Day,   Blue Harris   P.S. Is Denver playing? : > )

    ________________________________ From: Mark Lightman To: Iver Larsen ; Oun Kwon ; Biblical Greek’ Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 5:02:13 AM Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Matthew 22:34

    Iver wrote

    Hi, Iver,

    I think what happened is that Oun’s suggestion “for the same purpose” reminded me of Blue Harris’ recent post

    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-September/054419.html

    and that post rubbed me the right way.

    Mark L Φωσφορος

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

      Reply
  21. Mark Lightman says:

    Hi, Carl,

    You guys are probably right, but cf. 1 Cor 7:5, where there seems to be a hint of purpose. That is the picture I have in my mind, the completion of a delayed event that is at least as telic as it is locative.

    Mark L

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

      Reply
  22. Mark Lightman says:

    Hi, Carl,

    You guys are probably right, but cf. 1 Cor 7:5, where there seems to be a hint of purpose. That is the picture I have in my mind, the completion of a delayed event that is at least as telic as it is locative.

    Mark L

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

      Reply
  23. Carl Conrad says:

    I think not. I think that BDAG has it right, s.v. EPI ” 1. marker of location or surface, answering the question ‘where?’ on, upon, near … c. w. acc., answering the question ‘where?’ β. ἐ. τὸ αὐτό [EPI TO AUTO] at the same place, together … ” — and 1 Cor 7:5 is cited specifically for this sense.

    Carl W. Conrad

      Reply
  24. Carl Conrad says:

    I think not. I think that BDAG has it right, s.v. EPI ” 1. marker of location or surface, answering the question ‘where?’ on, upon, near … c. w. acc., answering the question ‘where?’ β. ἐ. τὸ αὐτό [EPI TO AUTO] at the same place, together … ” — and 1 Cor 7:5 is cited specifically for this sense.

    Carl W. Conrad

      Reply
  25. Oun Kwon says:

    I wonder why I should buy an opinion of BDAG rather than FWSFOROS (his is more enlightening)? Isn’t it enough to see the text just say ‘When they gather together’? What does the idiomatic phrase in a locative sense says more than what the text says?

    In this particular example in 1Co 7:5, many English translations actually omit it, while a few seems take it as ‘purpose’ when paraphrasing (as in NET ‘…. resume your relationship’).

    Oun Kwon.

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  26. Michael Baber says:

    Yes, you could even say his opinion is “brilliant.” *snort, snort*

    — On Sat, 12/11/10, Oun Kwon wrote:

    I wonder why I should buy an opinion of BDAG rather than FWSFOROS (his is more enlightening)?   Isn’t it enough to see the text just say ‘When they gather together’? What does the idiomatic phrase in a locative sense says more than what the text says?

    In this particular example in 1Co 7:5, many English translations actually omit it, while a few seems take it as ‘purpose’ when paraphrasing (as in NET ‘…. resume your relationship’).

    Oun Kwon.

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  27. "Iver Larsen" says:

    —– Original Message —– Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07

    That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words, literally “at the same (place)”, but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as such it simply means “together”. There is no need to look for a neuter antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates the idiom as “together”.

    I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes it implicit in “unless you agree not to have sex for a little while”. Since it is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: “marital relations” and NET: “your relationship”. NET’s “resume” translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion, the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal “be together again” should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  28. Mark Lightman says:

    Iver wrote

    Hi, Iver,

    I think what happened is that Oun’s suggestion “for the same purpose” reminded me of Blue Harris’ recent post

    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-September/054419.html

    and that post rubbed me the right way.

    Mark L Φωσφορος

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

    ________________________________ Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:41:57 PM

    Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07

    That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words, literally “at the same (place)”, but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as such it simply means “together”. There is no need to look for a neuter antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates the idiom as “together”.

    I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes it implicit in “unless you agree not to have sex for a little while”. Since it is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: “marital relations” and NET: “your relationship”. NET’s “resume” translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion, the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal “be together again” should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

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  29. George F Somsel says:

    There is a use of ἐπί EPI + acc to indicate purpose, but I hardly think it is feasible that such is the use here.  BDAG indicates this with an example ἐπὶ τὸ βάπτισμα EPI TO BAPTISMA “for baptism” or “to have themselves baptized.”  If you try to use that function here you end up with “for the same …” what?  You end up having to supply ”purpose” and then end up wondering what purpose that might be.  It is a much more likely that it means simply that they gathered together by themselves or alone. 

     george gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus _________

    ________________________________ Greek’ Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 6:02:13 AM

    Iver wrote

    Hi, Iver,

    I think what happened is that Oun’s suggestion “for the same purpose” reminded me of Blue Harris’ recent post

    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2010-September/054419.html

    and that post rubbed me the right way.

    Mark L Φωσφορος

    FWSFOROS MARKOS

    ________________________________ Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:41:57 PM

    Sent: 12. december 2010 01:07

    That is exactly what an idiom means. You have an expression with several words, literally “at the same (place)”, but an idiom is to be taken as a whole, and as such it simply means “together”. There is no need to look for a neuter antecedent of AUTO, since it is a fixed expression that always uses AUTO. Nor is

    there any hint of purpose in the idiom. Every translation correctly translates the idiom as “together”.

    I cannot see that any translation takes the idiom as suggesting purpose, nor that many English versions omit it. Which ones are you referring to? CEV makes it implicit in “unless you agree not to have sex for a little while”. Since it is for a little while, it is understood that after a period devoted to a special

    time of prayer without sex, then they should again have sex together. Bible translators normally want to use euphemisms for this activity, since the Bible is being read publicly in all sorts of situations. GNV: “marital relations” and NET: “your relationship”. NET’s “resume” translates PALIN HTE. In my opinion, the NET is unnecessarily broad. Obviously, when husband and wife are together in

    this sense, they have to be at the same place, but using the literal “be together again” should be clear enough in the context. Meaning is not only derived from words in isolation, but from words that occur EPI TO AUTO.

    Iver Larsen

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

          — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  32. Oun Kwon says:

    My reply below just to answer your specific questions.

    Oun Kwon

    nor

    OJK:

    1Co 11:18 – ‘for the purpose of eating’ – Wuest; [Most omits – NAB, NASB, ESV, RSV, etc.] Act 4:26 – ‘for the very same purpose’ – SourceNT

    while”. devoted situations. be clear isolation,

    OJK: Aren’t they examples of the nuance of ‘purpose’, unless of course if we discard the phrase as unnecessary (in English) idiomatic expression?

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  33. George F Somsel says:

    I suppose if you are determined to read purpose into this you can be one of the very few who find such in it.  Not only will you then be one of a very few who find purpose in this passage but also in any such construction.  I suppose you know more about Greek and its idioms than Danker. 

     george gfsomsel

    … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.

    – Jan Hus _________

    ________________________________ Sent: Sun, December 12, 2010 2:08:41 PM

    Why! What purpose? Read the context!

    Mt 22:34 the Pharisees’ purpose (or intent) is same as the Sadducees’. To challenge/test/trap.

    Oun Kwon. — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

    — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply
  34. Oun Kwon says:

    [Let’s stay away from being personal. I’m just 120 pounds chip sitting at the desk ;-<] Are you saying that BDAG is correct in all and every time? I let myself check as many places as it occurs in NT to see this particular phrase EPI TO AUTO and then get the feel of it - of course, some are to be locative and some are to be "redundant" [redundant to tell locative sense?]. And you say it can NOT be telic? Why? Idiom is idiom. Does it violate some linguistic principles which BDAG has in its keeping? BTW, by reading it locative, there is one single place in NT where it drives people in exegetical (? eisegetical) hodgepodge - Act 2:1 ( 'gathered at the same place' - At what place did they gather at the Pentecost?). Oun Kwon --- B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

      Reply

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