[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Oun Kwon kwonbbl at gmail.com
Thu Sep 4 19:19:28 εδτ 2008
[] Mk 8:12 ει δοθησεται THi GENEAi TAUTHi σημειον [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt ι am looking at Mt 4:24. The following is the way ι see in a poor man’sdiagramming.Mt 4:24(α) και *αφλθεν *η ακοη αυτου εισ ολην θν συριαν(β) και *προσηνεγκαν *αυτω παντασ τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ(B1) ποικιλαισ νοσοισ και βασανοισ συνεξομενουσ(B2) [και] δαιμονιζομενουσ(B3) και σεληνιαζομενουσ(B4) και παραλυτικουσ(ξ) και *εθεραπευσεν *αυτουσ.The verse consists of three clauses (α) (β) and (ξ) with verbs αφλθεν,προσηνεγκαν, εθεραπευσεν.The problem ι had is with (β). ι like to take B1, B2, B3 and B4 withaccusative participles συνεξομενουσ, δαιμονιζομενουσ, σεληνιαζομενου, andaccusative adjective παραλυτικουσ as ‘objects’ of the verb εξω (> εξοντασ).ι wish B4 had a participle, but ι can take as in a sense of participle inEnglish (‘being paralytic).Then, κακωσ εξω takes all the forms of people’s trouble to be brought toHim. From reading English translations, it is not clear and precise. Theyseem to give me a picture of their taking B2-B4 as the objects of verb βπροσηνεγκαν.ι would appreciate your comments so that ι make sure ι am on the righttrack.Oun Kwon.
[] Mk 8:12 ει δοθησεται THi GENEAi TAUTHi σημειον[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt
[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Sep 4 19:35:37 εδτ 2008
[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt On Sep 4, 2008, at 7:19 πμ, Oun Kwon wrote:> ι am looking at Mt 4:24. The following is the way ι see in a poor > man’s> diagramming.> > Mt 4:24> (α) και *αφλθεν *η ακοη αυτου εισ ολην θν συριαν> (β) και *προσηνεγκαν *αυτω παντασ τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ> (B1) ποικιλαισ νοσοισ και βασανοισ συνεξομενουσ> (B2) [και] δαιμονιζομενουσ> (B3) και σεληνιαζομενουσ> (B4) και παραλυτικουσ> (ξ) και *εθεραπευσεν *αυτουσ.> > The verse consists of three clauses (α) (β) and (ξ) with verbs > αφλθεν,> προσηνεγκαν, εθεραπευσεν.> > The problem ι had is with (β). ι like to take B1, B2, B3 and B4 with> accusative participles συνεξομενουσ, δαιμονιζομενουσ, > σεληνιαζομενου, and> accusative adjective παραλυτικουσ as ‘objects’ of the verb εξω (> > εξοντασ).> > ι wish B4 had a participle, but ι can take as in a sense of > participle in> English (‘being paralytic).> > Then, κακωσ εξω takes all the forms of people’s trouble to be > brought to> Him. From reading English translations, it is not clear and precise. > They> seem to give me a picture of their taking B2-B4 as the objects of > verb β> προσηνεγκαν.> > ι would appreciate your comments so that ι make sure ι am on the right> track.ι think it would be better to understand παντασ τουσ with (a) κακωσ εξοντασ ποικιλαισ νοσοισ, (b) βασανοισ συνεξομενουσ, (c) δαιμονιζομενουσ, (d) σεληνιαζομενουσ,and (e) παραλυτικουσ. That is to say, κακωσ εξοντασ ποικιλαισ νοσοισ is one of 5 (five) groups all contained within the article τουσ and the inclusive quantitative adjective παντασ. κακωσ εξειν is a distinct idiom in itself for “be ill” — a colloquial equivalent of νοσειν. The other four categories are parallel to those suffering illnesses, not subcategories.Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt
[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Fri Sep 5 01:17:08 εδτ 2008
[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt —– Original Message —– From: “Oun Kwon” <kwonbbl at gmail.com>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: 5. september 2008 02:19Subject: [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt>ι am looking at Mt 4:24. The following is the way ι see in a poor man’s> diagramming.> > Mt 4:24> (α) και *αφλθεν *η ακοη αυτου εισ ολην θν συριαν> (β) και *προσηνεγκαν *αυτω παντασ τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ> (B1) ποικιλαισ νοσοισ και βασανοισ συνεξομενουσ> (B2) [και] δαιμονιζομενουσ> (B3) και σεληνιαζομενουσ> (B4) και παραλυτικουσ> (ξ) και *εθεραπευσεν *αυτουσ.> > The verse consists of three clauses (α) (β) and (ξ) with verbs αφλθεν,> προσηνεγκαν, εθεραπευσεν.> > The problem ι had is with (β). ι like to take B1, B2, B3 and B4 with> accusative participles συνεξομενουσ, δαιμονιζομενουσ, σεληνιαζομενου, and> accusative adjective παραλυτικουσ as ‘objects’ of the verb εξω (> εξοντασ).> > ι wish B4 had a participle, but ι can take as in a sense of participle in> English (‘being paralytic).> > Then, κακωσ εξω takes all the forms of people’s trouble to be brought to> Him. From reading English translations, it is not clear and precise. They> seem to give me a picture of their taking B2-B4 as the objects of verb β> προσηνεγκαν.> > ι would appreciate your comments so that ι make sure ι am on the right> track.> > Oun Kwon.ι would say that you are on the right track, except to take the participles as “objects” of εξω. The passage has three coordinated main clauses and 5 subordinated clauses.As Carl has mentioned εξειν κακωσ is a Greek idiom “to have it in a bad way” for being ill or having troubles. Other related languages may have a similar idiom. When people in English say “How are you?” we say in Danish “How do you have it?” Others may say “How do you feel?”ι would therefore consider παντασ τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ as a complete noun phrase with an embedded clause.α participial “phrase” in Greek is often nowadays called a participial clause by linguists because it contains a verb and it often corresponds to a rank-shifted relative clause in English. They brought to him “all”. How are these “all” further described? First by “who had it in a bad way” (or “those having it in a bad way”, if you want to use a participle in English.)ι agree that this a general statement which is further clarified and described by the following 4 subordinated clauses. This is typical of the Hebrew thought pattern behind the Greek text of Matthew . α general statement comes first, followed by clarifying details.Your B1 is a participial clause which modifies and further describes παντασ (τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ) and is therefore in the accusative. The συν prefix is the reason why the “objects” (ποικιλαισ νοσοισ και βασανοισ) of the participial verb are in the dative.B2, B3 and B4 are three more participial clauses parallel to B1. For B4 we need to supply the participle οντασ, but it is common in Greek to have an underlying form of ειμι not expressed in the surface structure.Iver Larsen
Fri Sep 5 22:02:43 εδτ 2008
[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt [] Revelation 14:4–παρθενοι γαρ εισιν On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 1:17 αμ, Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org> wrote:> —– Original Message —– From: “Oun Kwon” <kwonbbl at gmail.com>> To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>> Sent: 5. september 2008 02:19> Subject: [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt> > > > ι would say that you are on the right track, except to take the participles> as “objects” of εξω. The passage has three coordinated main clauses and 5> subordinated clauses.> As Carl has mentioned εξειν κακωσ is a Greek idiom “to have it in a bad way”> for being ill or having troubles. Other related languages may have a similar> idiom. When people in English say “How are you?” we say in Danish “How do> you have it?” Others may say “How do you feel?”> ι would therefore consider παντασ τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ as a complete noun> phrase with an embedded clause.<clipped>> IverThanks Iver and Carl.ι agree with Iver to take παντασ τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ as a complete nounphrase. Perhaps, that’s why ι put a quotation mark on ‘objects’.If ι put it in diagrams again, this seems how Carl saw it:(β) και προσηνεγκαν αυτω παντασ τουσ(B0) κακωσ εξοντασ ποικιλαισ νοσοισ(B1) και βασανοισ συνεξομενουσ(B2) [και] δαιμονιζομενουσ(B3) και σεληνιαζομενουσ(B4) και PARALUTIKOUSCompared how ι see: ι believe that’s how Iver saw it too.(β) και προσηνεγκαν αυτω παντασ τουσ κακωσ εξοντασ(B1) ποικιλαισ νοσοισ και βασανοισ συνεξομενουσ(B2) [και] δαιμονιζομενουσ(B3) και σεληνιαζομενουσ(B4) και PARALUTIKOUSAll these (B1) to (B4) are the examples (details) of παντασ τουσκακωσ εξοντασ.It seems to me the choice is to be made from the context since thegrammar and syntax do not help much here.This is what looks like in most English translations:(β) και προσηνεγκαν αυτω παντασ τουσ(B0) κακωσ εξοντασ(B1) ποικιλαισ νοσοισ και βασανοισ συνεξομενουσ(B2) [και] δαιμονιζομενουσ(B3) και σεληνιαζομενουσ(B4) και παραλυτικουσι would buy the last one the way the conventional translations see itif (B0) read ‘και ποικιλαισ νοσοισ ….’Oun.
[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt[] Revelation 14:4–παρθενοι γαρ εισιν