Matt 5:14 David A Bielby dbielby at juno.com
Tue Dec 7 19:26:52 EST 1999
john 12:3 Families in Greece The term hUMEIS from hUMEIS ESTE TO FWS TOU KOSMOU should be understoodto mean you all together are the light of the world….can the conceptyou, each one individually, are the light of the world. The broaderquestion is this: When the second plural is used in Greek how does oneknow when to apply it also as a second singular?The reason for my question is that from time to time I hear someone makea point that second plural pronouns cannot automatically apply toindividuals, but are corporate commands to congregations or groups ofpeople that only a community can obey as a community, but have neverheard anything from Greek Grammar that could validate or invalidate this.Thanks for the input.David Bielbythe Vineyard’a contemporary church’Bloomington/Normal, Illinois USA dbielby at juno.com Phone: 309-827-8292
john 12:3Families in Greece
Matt 5:14 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Dec 7 20:38:07 EST 1999
Syntax Grammars Syntax Grammars At 6:26 PM -0600 12/7/99, David A Bielby wrote:>The term hUMEIS from hUMEIS ESTE TO FWS TOU KOSMOU should be understood>to mean you all together are the light of the world….can the concept>you, each one individually, are the light of the world. The broader>question is this: When the second plural is used in Greek how does one>know when to apply it also as a second singular?> >The reason for my question is that from time to time I hear someone make>a point that second plural pronouns cannot automatically apply to>individuals, but are corporate commands to congregations or groups of>people that only a community can obey as a community, but have never>heard anything from Greek Grammar that could validate or invalidate this.The normal way to indicate that an imperative or an indicative in thesecond person plural is to be understood not collectively but individuallyis to use a form of hEKASTOS in agreement with the subject–i.e.nominative. Here are a couple good examples from Ephesians:Eph 4:25 DIO APOQEMENOI TO YEUDOS LALEITE ALHQEIAN hEKASTAOS META TOUPLHSION AUTOU, hOTI ESMEN ALLHLWN MELH.Eph 5:33 PLHN KAI hUMEIS hOI KAQ’ hENA, hEKASTOS THN hEAUTOU GUNAIKA hOUTWSAGAPAATW hWS hEAUTON, hH DE GUNH hINA FOBHTAI TON ANDRA.I think what this means is that we should probably understand these secondperson plurals in the context; there may be instances where we can’t besure whether the assertion or admonition is collective or addressed to allindividuals, but what we can say for sure is that there were ways of makingclear in Greek that an admonition referred to each individual member of thegroup.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Syntax GrammarsSyntax Grammars
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 kgraham0938 at comcast.net kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Mon Oct 31 15:37:23 EST 2005
[] Question On varient of Acts 26:17 “now” and Romans 10:9,10 [] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 Just double checking myself, I was talking to a friend about OU DUNATAI POLIS KRUBHNAI EPANW OPOUS KEIMENH of Matt 5:14.He wanted to argue that KEIMAI here is passive, I told him that KEIMAI here is deponent because it is intransitive therefore it could not be a passive. But rather pointed to location, “a city located on a hill…”The only reason we were discussing this is because he wants to make the passive mean something in his sermon to the effect of God planting us etc. Anyway, way I correct? Is KEIMAI here deponent?–Kelton Graham KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
[] Question On varient of Acts 26:17 “now” and Romans 10:9,10[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Mon Oct 31 16:24:48 EST 2005
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 [] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 On Oct 31, 2005, at 3:37 PM, kgraham0938 at comcast.net wrote:> Just double checking myself, I was talking to a friend about OU > DUNATAI POLIS KRUBHNAI EPANW OPOUS KEIMENH of Matt 5:14.> > He wanted to argue that KEIMAI here is passive, I told him that > KEIMAI here is deponent because it is intransitive therefore it > could not be a passive. But rather pointed to location, “a city > located on a hill…”> > The only reason we were discussing this is because he wants to make > the passive mean something in his sermon to the effect of God > planting us etc. Anyway, way I correct? Is KEIMAI here deponent?It’s traditionally categorized as a deponent, but that tradition is, as I have repeatedly urged, not worth retaining. KEIMAI is a verb that only appears in the middle voice; it means “lie” or “rest” — but it serves idiomatically as a perfect passive of TIQHMI, so that KEIMENH in the passage here means “lying upon” with the implication that it has been deliberatedly situated upon the hill.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 Mitch Larramore mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 31 17:20:06 EST 2005
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 [] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 Dr. Conrad…This may be a ridiculous question, but I’ve read morethan once an explanation similar to the one you’vegiven here and really have never understood the behindthe scenes workings of such a phenomenon. Why would aparticular verb act as the Passive of a differentverb? Did this happen with the combining of thevarious dialects into KOINH? I believe I’ve even readsomething similar to that with OIDA and one of itstense functions. Is this answerable in a venue such as this?Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas__________________________________ Yahoo! Mail – PC Magazine Editors’ Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Mon Oct 31 19:19:05 EST 2005
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 [] Question On varient of Acts 26:17 “now” and Romans10:9, 10 On Oct 31, 2005, at 5:20 PM, Mitch Larramore wrote:> Dr. Conrad…> > This may be a ridiculous question, but I’ve read more> than once an explanation similar to the one you’ve> given here and really have never understood the behind> the scenes workings of such a phenomenon. Why would a> particular verb act as the Passive of a different> verb? Did this happen with the combining of the> various dialects into KOINH? I believe I’ve even read> something similar to that with OIDA and one of its> tense functions. Is this answerable in a venue such as this?Actually the usage of KEIMAI as pf. passive of TIQHMI is old: TIQHMI means “lay down” or “postulate”; NOMON TIQHMI means “legislate, establish a law.” DIATIQHMI means “arrange” while DIAKEITAI means “has been arranged” — and NOMOS KEIMENOS means “established law” and CRHMATA KEIMENA EN THi TRAPEZHi means “money on deposit in the bank.”And yes, it is true that OIDA functions as if it were a present tense (“I know”) although it is the second perfect of the same verb that in the second aorist is EIDON, “I saw.”These are idioms. There are other oddities too, such as that PIPTW functions as the passive of BALLW, although this shows up more in compounds: EKBALLW, while perhaps best known in Koine as “cast out (demons)” is in older Greek the standard word for “send into exile” or even “divorce” while “be sent into exile” or “be divorced” is EKPIPTW. These are among the reasons why I have sometimes said that learning Greek is not so much a matter of reading a road map as it is a matter of becoming familiar with the terrain by repeatedly walking over it.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14[] Question On varient of Acts 26:17 “now” and Romans10:9, 10
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 James Tauber jtauber at jtauber.com
Wed Nov 2 04:07:22 EST 2005
[] Beginners on ? [] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14 On 01/11/2005, at 6:20 AM, Mitch Larramore wrote:> > This may be a ridiculous question, but I’ve read more> than once an explanation similar to the one you’ve> given here and really have never understood the behind> the scenes workings of such a phenomenon. Why would a> particular verb act as the Passive of a different> verb? Did this happen with the combining of the> various dialects into KOINH? I believe I’ve even read> something similar to that with OIDA and one of its> tense functions. Is this answerable in a venue such as this?The general phenomenon is called suppletion and it occurs in many languages, including English.For example, “went” is used as the past tense of “go”.”better/best” are used as the comparative/superlative of “good”.etc.James Tauber
[] Beginners on ?[] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14
[] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14 Lorinda Hoover and Jim Mossman hoovmoss at iowatelecom.net
Wed Nov 2 07:45:15 EST 2005
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14 [] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14 I realize I’m behind the times in responding to this, but it the questionaround deponents in this thread reminded me of an discussion I had severaltimes with another pastor with whom I used to translate Greek and Hebrew.It always seemed to me that the the category of “deponent verbs” wasdesigned to help English speakers understand verbs that were passive inGreek but whose meaning was expressed in active voice in English. Thisdiscussion arose in part because my friend tended to treat deponent verbs asa voice distinct from passive, active, or middle. I’ve always assumed that”native” Koine Greek speakers wouldn’t have made a conscious distinctionbetween a “deponent” passive and a “true” passive. Am I correct in thisassumption?on 10/31/05 3:24 PM, Carl W. Conrad at cwconrad at ioa.com wrote:> > On Oct 31, 2005, at 3:37 PM, kgraham0938 at comcast.net wrote:> >> Just double checking myself, I was talking to a friend about OU>> DUNATAI POLIS KRUBHNAI EPANW OPOUS KEIMENH of Matt 5:14.>> >> He wanted to argue that KEIMAI here is passive, I told him that>> KEIMAI here is deponent because it is intransitive therefore it>> could not be a passive. But rather pointed to location, “a city>> located on a hill…”>> >> The only reason we were discussing this is because he wants to make>> the passive mean something in his sermon to the effect of God>> planting us etc. Anyway, way I correct? Is KEIMAI here deponent?> > It’s traditionally categorized as a deponent, but that tradition is,> as I have repeatedly urged, not worth retaining. KEIMAI is a verb> that only appears in the middle voice; it means “lie” or “rest” —> but it serves idiomatically as a perfect passive of TIQHMI, so that> KEIMENH in the passage here means “lying upon” with the implication> that it has been deliberatedly situated upon the hill.> > Carl W. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243> cwconrad2 at mac.com> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/> > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] KEIMENH Matt 5:14[] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14
[] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Wed Nov 2 09:08:18 EST 2005
[] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14 [] “Wisdom, let us attend!’ For what it’s worth, my current thinking about ancient Greek voice is set forth athttp://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/GrkVc.htmlThere are links on that page to the November 2002 PDF file setting forth myviews as of that date; I intend to incorporate the newer thoughts on thepage listed above into a revised version of that November 2002 documentalong with considerably more documentation. Also on that web page is alink to a short paper “Active, Middle, and Passive: Understanding AncientGreek Voice” — this was intended to help beginning students make senseof the unwieldy presentation of the subject set forth in most traditionalprimers (and even some intermediate reference works).On Nov 2, 2005, at 7:45 AM, Lorinda Hoover and Jim Mossman wrote:> I realize I’m behind the times in responding to this, but it the > question> around deponents in this thread reminded me of an discussion I had > several> times with another pastor with whom I used to translate Greek and > Hebrew.> It always seemed to me that the the category of “deponent verbs” was> designed to help English speakers understand verbs that were > passive in> Greek but whose meaning was expressed in active voice in English. > This> discussion arose in part because my friend tended to treat deponent > verbs as> a voice distinct from passive, active, or middle. I’ve always > assumed that> “native” Koine Greek speakers wouldn’t have made a conscious > distinction> between a “deponent” passive and a “true” passive. Am I correct in > this> assumption?> > > on 10/31/05 3:24 PM, Carl W. Conrad at cwconrad at ioa.com wrote:> >> >> On Oct 31, 2005, at 3:37 PM, kgraham0938 at comcast.net wrote:>> >>> Just double checking myself, I was talking to a friend about OU>>> DUNATAI POLIS KRUBHNAI EPANW OPOUS KEIMENH of Matt 5:14.>>> >>> He wanted to argue that KEIMAI here is passive, I told him that>>> KEIMAI here is deponent because it is intransitive therefore it>>> could not be a passive. But rather pointed to location, “a city>>> located on a hill…”>>> >>> The only reason we were discussing this is because he wants to make>>> the passive mean something in his sermon to the effect of God>>> planting us etc. Anyway, way I correct? Is KEIMAI here deponent?>> >> It’s traditionally categorized as a deponent, but that tradition is,>> as I have repeatedly urged, not worth retaining. KEIMAI is a verb>> that only appears in the middle voice; it means “lie” or “rest” —>> but it serves idiomatically as a perfect passive of TIQHMI, so that>> KEIMENH in the passage here means “lying upon” with the implication>> that it has been deliberatedly situated upon the hill.>> >> Carl W. Conrad>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243>> cwconrad2 at mac.com>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/>> >> —>> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] Deponents Was Re: KEIMENH Matt 5:14[] “Wisdom, let us attend!’