Dear Fellow GreekersIn studying Eschatology ι have stumbled on whatappears to be a translating inquiry. Why is GEhENNAN(Mt. 5: 22, 28 + others) translated as ‘hell'(νρσβ). To my thinking GEhENNAN is the name of aplace and therefore its title is a proper noun thesame as εφεσοσ is to Ephesus, why change it?On the other hand, if we are to change it, then asequally puzzling is hADES being translated as hades inkeeping with the proper noun (however the νιβ hashades, depths, hell & grave). It seems to me that ι‘mmissing a piece of the puzzle. Please helpIf a response to these questions necessitatesclarification theologically, please feel free torespond off list.Yours in ChristLloyd DawsonTownsville, Aust.http://messenger.yahoo.com.au – Yahoo! Messenger- α great way to communicate long-distance for φρεε!
Hell Ed Siefert sieferted at hotmail.com
Tue Dec 10 17:31:59 εστ 2002
Future Passive Indicatives in ντ (Correction) Future Passive Indicatives in ντ (Correction) Wow, Waco:ι just read your message and felt compelled to comment on the subjectwords. You are correct that Gehenna is the valley of fire south of OldJerusalem in which trash and the bodies of the crufified were thrown acouple of millennia ago. The word itself is Hebrew.Hades, according to Greek mythology, is the “unseen world,” the abode ofthe dead in which life continues on several different planes. One of thoseplanes is Tartarus, the lowest level of Hades where souls are kept ineternal punishment for their sins in this worldly life: home to somespiritually despicable people, ι guess.Use of these words is the ντ is highly idomatic. α western view of Hadeslead to confusion about Hell itself in early scriptural translations;perhaps was due to an improper emphasis on Tartarus.Ed
Ge’enna & ‘ades Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon May 13 07:09:03 εδτ 2002
LOGIKOS2 λογικοσ 2 At 11:23 πμ +1000 5/12/02, Lloyd Dawson wrote:>Dear Fellow Greekers> >In studying Eschatology ι have stumbled on what>appears to be a translating inquiry. Why is GEhENNAN>(Mt. 5: 22, 28 + others) translated as ‘hell’>(νρσβ). To my thinking GEhENNAN is the name of a>place and therefore its title is a proper noun the>same as εφεσοσ is to Ephesus, why change it?Well, yes. We can find Ephesus on the map; we are told that Gehenna was thechasm to the south of the temple mount where garbage was burned, and Isuppose some might think that’s exactly what the Biblical texts arereferring to rather than assume that the designation is being usedmetaphorically for a spiritual place outside of space and time, a place notto be located on a map.>On the other hand, if we are to change it, then as>equally puzzling is hADES being translated as hades in>keeping with the proper noun (however the νιβ has>hades, depths, hell & grave). It seems to me that ι‘m>missing a piece of the puzzle. Please helphADHS involves similar problems, but already in Greek and Roman antiquityits conceptualization and wide-ranging literary representations as therealm of the dead (originally a genitive hAiDOU, the “house of Hades”,Hades being the name of the brother of Zeus and Poseidon to whom theunderworld had been allotted as a realm) made it a “fuzzy” sort ofdesignation of death, the place of the dead, the place of punishment ANDreward rather than what in the western tradition is meant by “hell.” So Ithink hADHS in the γντ cannot be pinned down to any single notion in allits γντ usages; here are the citations in brief:hADHS hades, hell (10)Matt. 11:23 hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHiMatt. 16:18 εκκλησιαν και πυλαι hAiDOU ου κατισξυσουσιν AUTHSLuke 10:15 hEWS ουρανου hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHiLuke 16:23 και εν TWi hAiDHi επαρασ τουσ OFQALMOUSActs 2:27 υυχν μου εισ hAiDHN ουδε δωσεισ τον …Acts 2:31 ουτε εγκατελειφθη εισ hAiDHN ουτε hH σαρχ …Rev. 1:18 τασ κλεισ του θανατου και του hAiDOURev. 6:8 θανατοσ, και hO hAiDHS ηκολουθει μετ‘ AUTOURev. 20:13 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εδωκαν τουσ NEKROUSRev. 20:14 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εβληθησαν εισ θν …>If a response to these questions necessitates>clarification theologically, please feel free to>respond off list.ι would hope it doesn’t, but there’s always the possibility of somebody’sox being gored when what the Biblical text may possibly mean λιτεραλλυ whatmany or most readers will understand in a φιγυρατιβε sense.– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
LOGIKOS2LOGIKOS 2
Ge’enna & ‘ades Mark Wilson emory2oo2 at hotmail.com
Mon May 13 14:22:50 εδτ 2002
λογικοσ 2 Fwd: ββ: Virus Just a brief observation here:>hADHS hades, hell (10)>Matt. 11:23 hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHi>Matt. 16:18 εκκλησιαν και πυλαι hAiDOU ου κατισξυσουσιν αυθσ>Luke 10:15 hEWS ουρανου hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHi>Luke 16:23 και εν TWi hAiDHi επαρασ τουσ οφθαλμουσ>Acts 2:27 υυχν μου εισ hAiDHN ουδε δωσεισ τον …>Acts 2:31 ουτε εγκατελειφθη εισ hAiDHN ουτε hH σαρχ …>Rev. 1:18 τασ κλεισ του θανατου και του hAiDOU>Rev. 6:8 θανατοσ, και hO hAiDHS ηκολουθει μετ‘ αυτου>Rev. 20:13 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εδωκαν τουσ νεκρουσ>Rev. 20:14 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εβληθησαν εισ θν …> You will note that all these references are related to the οτ.In the οτ, you had Sheol, which corresponds to hADES in the ντ.Sheol was comprised of all the dead, both righteous and unrighteous,but after Christ lead captivity away, Sheol no longer seems to havea compartment for the righteous. That is, in the οτ, the redeemedwent to Abraham’s bosom; in the ντ, the redeemed go immediatelyinto the presence of the Lord.In the οτ, the redeemed expected to depart to Abraham’s bosom,where they awaited the resurrection at the final day.The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows these twocompartments. And some argue that the wicked demonsthat are in Tartarus were yet in another compartmentwithin the Sheol complex.More thoughts,Mark Wilson_________________________________________________________________Join the worlds largest e-mail service with μσν Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com
λογικοσ 2Fwd: ββ: Virus
Mon May 13 19:40:50 εδτ 2002
Fwd: ββ: Virus Ge’enna & ‘ades At 6:22 πμ +0000 5/13/02, Mark Wilson wrote:>Just a brief observation here:> >>hADHS hades, hell (10)>>Matt. 11:23 hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHi>>Matt. 16:18 εκκλησιαν και πυλαι hAiDOU ου κατισξυσουσιν αυθσ>>Luke 10:15 hEWS ουρανου hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHi>>Luke 16:23 και εν TWi hAiDHi επαρασ τουσ οφθαλμουσ>>Acts 2:27 υυχν μου εισ hAiDHN ουδε δωσεισ τον …>>Acts 2:31 ουτε εγκατελειφθη εισ hAiDHN ουτε hH σαρχ …>>Rev. 1:18 τασ κλεισ του θανατου και του hAiDOU>>Rev. 6:8 θανατοσ, και hO hAiDHS ηκολουθει μετ‘ αυτου>>Rev. 20:13 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εδωκαν τουσ νεκρουσ>>Rev. 20:14 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εβληθησαν εισ θν …>> > > >You will note that all these references are related to the οτ.> >In the οτ, you had Sheol, which corresponds to hADES in the ντ.>Sheol was comprised of all the dead, both righteous and unrighteous,>but after Christ lead captivity away, Sheol no longer seems to have>a compartment for the righteous. That is, in the οτ, the redeemed>went to Abraham’s bosom; in the ντ, the redeemed go immediately>into the presence of the Lord.> >In the οτ, the redeemed expected to depart to Abraham’s bosom,>where they awaited the resurrection at the final day.> >The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows these two>compartments. And some argue that the wicked demons>that are in Tartarus were yet in another compartment>within the Sheol complex.This isn’t so much wrong as it oversimplifies a considerably more complexpicture For one thing, Tartarus belongs to Greek cultural notions, notHebraic ones, and in some instances hAiDHS seems to be a metaphor fordeath. ι would simply suggest that those concerned with this issue checkwhat βδαγ and Louw & Nida offer for hAiDHS.– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Fwd: ββ: VirusGe’enna & ‘ades
Ge’enna & ‘ades jhonhar at juno.com jhonhar at juno.com
Mon May 13 20:24:31 εδτ 2002
Ge’enna & ‘ades Ge’enna & ‘ades Here is a comparison ι did on the νιβ and the κψβ. Comparison was madeusing Strongs Cond. and matching the νιβ to κψβ.John Carrasjhonhar at juno.comOn Mon, 13 May 2002 19:40:50 -0400 “Carl ω. Conrad”<cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu> writes:> At 6:22 πμ +0000 5/13/02, Mark Wilson wrote:> >Just a brief observation here:> >> >>hADHS hades, hell (10)> >> Matt. 11:23 hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHi> >> Matt. 16:18 εκκλησιαν και πυλαι hAiDOU ου κατισξυσουσιν > αυθσ> >> Luke 10:15 hEWS ουρανου hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHi> >> Luke 16:23 και εν TWi hAiDHi επαρασ τουσ οφθαλμουσ> >> Acts 2:27 υυχν μου εισ hAiDHN ουδε δωσεισ τον …> >> Acts 2:31 ουτε εγκατελειφθη εισ hAiDHN ουτε hH σαρχ …> >> Rev. 1:18 τασ κλεισ του θανατου και του hAiDOU> >> Rev. 6:8 θανατοσ, και hO hAiDHS ηκολουθει μετ‘ αυτου> >> Rev. 20:13 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εδωκαν τουσ νεκρουσ> >> Rev. 20:14 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εβληθησαν εισ θν …> >>> >> >> >You will note that all these references are related to the οτ.> >> >In the οτ, you had Sheol, which corresponds to hADES in the ντ.> >Sheol was comprised of all the dead, both righteous and > unrighteous,> >but after Christ lead captivity away, Sheol no longer seems to > have> >a compartment for the righteous. That is, in the οτ, the redeemed> >went to Abraham’s bosom; in the ντ, the redeemed go immediately> >into the presence of the Lord.> >> >In the οτ, the redeemed expected to depart to Abraham’s bosom,> >where they awaited the resurrection at the final day.> >> >The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows these two> >compartments. And some argue that the wicked demons> >that are in Tartarus were yet in another compartment> >within the Sheol complex.> > This isn’t so much wrong as it oversimplifies a considerably more > complex> picture For one thing, Tartarus belongs to Greek cultural notions, > not> Hebraic ones, and in some instances hAiDHS seems to be a metaphor > for> death. ι would simply suggest that those concerned with this issue > check> what βδαγ and Louw & Nida offer for hAiDHS.> – > > Carl ω. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)> Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) > 675-4243> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.com> ωωω: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/> > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> You are currently subscribed to as: [jhonhar at juno.com]> To unsubscribe, forward this message to > $subst(‘Email.Unsub’)> To subscribe, send a message to > subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> > > ————– next part ————–α non-text attachment was scrubbed…Name: not availableType: application/mswordSize: 30720 bytesDesc: not availableUrl : http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/20020513/4d3ca5b0/attachment.dot
Ge’enna & ‘adesGe’enna & ‘ades
Mon May 13 21:18:59 εδτ 2002
Ge’enna & ‘ades Ge’enna & ‘ades Dear –> Here is a comparison as an attachment ι did on the νιβ and the κψβ.Comparison was > made> using Strongs Cond. and matching the νιβ to κψβ.> John Carras> jhonhar at juno.com> > On Mon, 13 May 2002 19:40:50 -0400 “Carl ω. Conrad”> <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu> writes:> > At 6:22 πμ +0000 5/13/02, Mark Wilson wrote:> > >Just a brief observation here:> > >> > >>hADHS hades, hell (10)> > >> Matt. 11:23 hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU KATABHSHi> > >> Matt. 16:18 εκκλησιαν και πυλαι hAiDOU ου > κατισξυσουσιν > > αυθσ> > >> Luke 10:15 hEWS ουρανου hUYWQHSH? hEWS hAiDOU > KATABHSHi> > >> Luke 16:23 και εν TWi hAiDHi επαρασ τουσ οφθαλμουσ> > >> Acts 2:27 υυχν μου εισ hAiDHN ουδε δωσεισ τον …> > >> Acts 2:31 ουτε εγκατελειφθη εισ hAiDHN ουτε hH σαρχ > …> > >> Rev. 1:18 τασ κλεισ του θανατου και του hAiDOU> > >> Rev. 6:8 θανατοσ, και hO hAiDHS ηκολουθει μετ‘ αυτου> > >> Rev. 20:13 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εδωκαν τουσ νεκρουσ> > >> Rev. 20:14 θανατοσ και hO hAiDHS εβληθησαν εισ θν > …> > >>> > >> > >> > >You will note that all these references are related to the οτ.> > >> > >In the οτ, you had Sheol, which corresponds to hADES in the ντ.> > >Sheol was comprised of all the dead, both righteous and > > unrighteous,> > >but after Christ lead captivity away, Sheol no longer seems to > > have> > >a compartment for the righteous. That is, in the οτ, the > redeemed> > >went to Abraham’s bosom; in the ντ, the redeemed go immediately> > >into the presence of the Lord.> > >> > >In the οτ, the redeemed expected to depart to Abraham’s bosom,> > >where they awaited the resurrection at the final day.> > >> > >The parable of the rich man and Lazarus shows these two> > >compartments. And some argue that the wicked demons> > >that are in Tartarus were yet in another compartment> > >within the Sheol complex.> > > > This isn’t so much wrong as it oversimplifies a considerably more > > > complex> > picture For one thing, Tartarus belongs to Greek cultural notions, > > > not> > Hebraic ones, and in some instances hAiDHS seems to be a metaphor > > > for> > death. ι would simply suggest that those concerned with this issue > > > check> > what βδαγ and Louw & Nida offer for hAiDHS.> > – > > > > Carl ω. Conrad> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)> > Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) > > 675-4243> > cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.com> > ωωω: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/> > > > —> > home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> > You are currently subscribed to as: [jhonhar at juno.com]> > To unsubscribe, forward this message to > > $subst(‘Email.Unsub’)> > To subscribe, send a message to > > subscribe- at franklin.oit.unc.edu> > > > > >
Matt.5:22/ δε Brian Swedburg brian at discoveryhills.org
Wed Sep 22 18:31:17 εδτ 1999
Greek Inscriptions and Orthography Matt. 5:22 / δε Greetings! ι‘ve enjoyed watching the friendly fray for a few weeks now,so ι thought ι would piggyback on the present discussion of δε.In Matt 5:22, εγω δε λεγω, is often translated ‘but ‘(νιβ, νκψβ, νασ,ρσβ), in a manner implying it is used adversatively. Recent b-Greekdiscussion and βαγδ agree that δε can connect and contrast. (Basicassumption…)Given Jesus’ strong statement concerning his intent πληρωσαι the law inMt 5:17, ι am inclined to see this δε following an οτ quote asconnective or ascensive.What do you think? Am ι missing something here?
Greek Inscriptions and OrthographyMatt. 5:22 / δε
Matt.5:22/ δε Steve Puluka spuluka at hotmail.com
Wed Sep 22 21:30:31 εδτ 1999
Old ντ μσ Old ντ μσ >From: Brian Swedburg <brian at discoveryhills.org>>Mt 5:17, ι am inclined to see this δε following an οτ quote as>connective or ascensive.> Thayer classifies this verse as “…opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of,**either with strong emphasis**Matt 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44 ,6:6, 8:12, 8:20Mark 8:29Luke 7:29, 9:581 Cor 1:23, 2:152 Cor 10:13**or with slight discrimination**Mark 1:45, 3:4, 5:34, 6:37, 7:6, 8:28Matt 2:5, 13:29, 37, 52Luke 4:40, 43, 5:16, 6:8, 8:10, 54, 15:29Thayer finds no less than τεν distinctive uses of δε. Quite a versitile word for the weakest of connections…..Steve PulukaAdult Education InstructorByzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh______________________________________________________Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Old ντ MSOld ντ μσ
here we go Ricky Grimsley all explained in the Greek
I have a friend who went to seminar on a hill overlooking the valley of Henna. There was a Bible college on the other side, and students would walk through the valley of Henna to use the library at the other school. They would make jokes about having to walk through Gehenna to get to the library. When the frost froze in the valley of Henna, they would say if you have every said you’d do something when Gehenna freezes over, well, it’s frozen over.
Do a word study on he’ll there is a great revelation there
in Jerusalem Gehenna was called the Place Where the Fire Doesn’t Die. So when Jesus says these things endanger a BELIEVER’S life of Gehenna, To Jesus hell, 15 of 18 instances of hell, it wasn’t talking about hell one day, it was talking about hell now. Six different things will send your life there: one, holding anger in your heart; two, calling someone an idiot; three, fearing man instead of fearing God; four, unforgiveness; five, pride; six, greed.
He’s saying if you live like that a believer is endangering your damaged Christian life to appear to others as if it is only good for the garbage dump. You don’t want your life on the garbage dump; you want to live a fuller Christian life now. Now the other hell, used 3 times, was eternal Hades for unbelievers. Jesus uses it three times; twice as a figure of speech, for instance the gates of hell will not prevail against it. The only time He uses it in terms of someone going there is an unbelieving rich man and he overlooked a poor man. That’s the guy that goes to hell.
do you know that for a fact? are you saying hell is not eternal now and no believer will ever fall in it
Troy Day Jesus was saying that BELIEVERS Christian life can be damaged and useless as if it is in a temporary earthly hell; but never lose their Eternal Life in the everlasting hell. Of course Jesus was saying that UNBELIEVERS spend eternity in an eternal hell.