Objective Genitive in Rom. 3:22 Jim Ellis jellis at dallas.net
Sun Oct 3 14:16:07 εδτ 1999
1 Cor 6:18 Matt 19:9 Hi Folks,ι am new to the List. Pardon me if this question seems trivial to you.It seems almost redundant for Paul to say “even the righteousness of Godthrough faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe,” (Rom. 3:22). Whyis it not appropriate to render “dia pistews Iesou Christou” as subjectiverather than objective, i.e. “through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ forall those who believe.”?Your fellow pilgrim,Jim Ellis
1 Cor 6:18Matt 19:9
Objective Genitive in Rom. 3:22 Alan Wong awong at ma.ultranet.com
Mon Oct 4 14:00:54 εδτ 1999
φω: Microsoft and αολ Merger difficult text Hi Jim,Jim Ellis wrote on Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:16:07-0500:> Hi Folks,> ι am new to the List. Pardon me if this question seems trivial to> you.> > It seems almost redundant for Paul to say “even the righteousness> of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe,” > (Rom. 3:22). Why is it not appropriate to render “dia pistews> Iesou Christou” as subjective rather than objective, i.e. “through> the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for> all those who believe.”?This is νοτ a trivial question. It’s an ongoing debateright now in Pauline theology … If you have a copy of Wallace,he refers in his footnotes to papers arguing for both sidesof the arguments. Probably the most informative pair of articlesis the one in a σβλ Seminar by Richard Hays (subjective) andJames Dunn (objective). One option that ι think should be consideredis the plenary genitive.Since the context of Rom 3:22 is talking about the righteousnessof God that has been revealed apart from the law (i.e. Christ’swork on the cross), it seems that here subjective genitive ismore probable. However, the argument for a subjective genitiveseems a little awkward considering Paul’s interaction with thefaith of Abraham in Rom 4. Personally, ι learn toward taking itas an objective genitive, but ι am still sympathetic toward thesubjective.-Grace & Peace,Alan WongM.Div. candidateGordon-Conwell Seminary
φω: Microsoft and αολ Mergerdifficult text
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 Mitch Larramore mitchlarramore at yahoo.com
Sat Apr 8 11:30:40 εδτ 2006
[] εξομεν or εξωμεν – Rom. 5.1 [] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 There seems to be considerable debate about whether ornot the Subjective or Objective is to be understoodwith this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”(where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) beexpressed in Greek unambiguously?Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] εξομεν or εξωμεν – Rom. 5.1[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Sun Apr 9 16:00:53 εδτ 2006
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 [] Matthew 28:17: hOI δε εδιστασαν Mitch wrote,> There seems to be considerable debate about whether or> not the Subjective or Objective is to be understood> with this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,> however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”> (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be> expressed in Greek unambiguously?Mitch,ι would say…absolutely !An example for say a number of people; in some moment coming with faith in/toward Christ:πιστευουσι εισ τον CRISTONor you, Mitch:πιστευεισ εισ τον CRISTONor us all:πιστευομεν εισ τον CRISTONThese are surely examples of simply, plainly and without ambiguity expressing the concept of faith in/toward Christ.In Romans 3:22 τουσ πιστευοντασ by the act of believing…grants them access to, ι would say, whatever is contained in δια πιστεωσ ξριστου, which in turn gives them access to δικαιοσυνη θεου; if not so, or if δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου indicates plainly (faith in Christ) what need would there be for εισ παντασ και επι παντασ τουσ πισευοντασ ?Much like Abraham firstly believed…then entered into what was represented by his taking Isaac to the mountain…all this then resulting in his being granted the δικαιονσυνη θεου….all in their order. Interesting how here in Romans 3:22 we see the order presented in reverse. The prize…the means…the initial entrance.Virgil NewkirkSalt Lake City
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22[] Matthew 28:17: hOI δε εδιστασαν
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 George φ Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Sun Apr 9 18:42:28 εδτ 2006
[] Matthew 28:17: hOI δε εδιστασαν [] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:00:53 -0600 “virgil newkirk”<virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:> > Mitch wrote,> > > > There seems to be considerable debate about whether or> > not the Subjective or Objective is to be understood> > with this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,> > however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”> > (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be> > expressed in Greek unambiguously?> > > > Mitch,> > ι would say…absolutely !> > An example for say a number of people; in some moment coming with > faith > in/toward Christ:> > πιστευουσι εισ τον ξριστον> > or you, Mitch:> > πιστευεισ εισ τον ξριστον> > or us all:> > πιστευομεν εισ τον ξριστον> > These are surely examples of simply, plainly and without ambiguity > expressing the concept of faith in/toward Christ.> > In Romans 3:22 τουσ πιστευοντασ by the act of believing…grants > them access > to, ι would say, whatever is contained in δια πιστεωσ ξριστου, which > in turn > gives them access to δικαιοσυνη θεου; if not so, or if δια πιστεωσ > ιησου > ξριστου indicates plainly (faith in Christ) what need would there be > for εισ > παντασ και επι παντασ τουσ πισευοντασ ?> > > Much like Abraham firstly believed…then entered into what was > represented > by his taking Isaac to the mountain…all this then resulting in > his being > granted the δικαιονσυνη θεου….all in their order. Interesting how > here in > Romans 3:22 we see the order presented in reverse. The prize…the > means…the initial entrance.> > > Virgil Newkirk> Salt Lake City____________EIS τον χριστον never appears in the ντ as a qualification of the verbPISTEUW. In 2 Cor 11.3 we findFOBOUMAI δε μη πωσ, hWS hO οφισ εξεπαθσεν ευαν εν THi PANOURGIAi αυτου,FQARHi τα νοηματα hUMWN απο θσ hAPOLTHTOS [και θσ hAGNOTHTOS] θσ ειστον XRISTONIt does appear in Acts 19.4 in the Byz Maj and τρ texts which have ειστον χριστον, but not in the critical texts which have ιησουν rather thanXRISTONhINA πιστευσωσιν, τουτ‘ εστιν εισ τον ιησουν.Of course, one might say that this is virtually the same thing.georgegfsomsel___________
[] Matthew 28:17: hOI δε εδιστασαν[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22
Mon Apr 10 00:35:02 εδτ 2006
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 [] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 George wrote:> On Sun, 9 Apr 2006 14:00:53 -0600 “virgil newkirk”> <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:> >> > Mitch wrote,> >> > There seems to be considerable debate about whether or> > not the Subjective or Objective is to be understood> > with this expression. My interest is almost elsewhere,> > however. Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ”> > (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be> > expressed in Greek unambiguously?> >> >> > Mitch,> >> > ι would say…absolutely !> >> > An example for say a number of people; in some moment coming with> > faith> > in/toward Christ:> >> > πιστευουσι εισ τον ξριστον> >> > or you, Mitch:> >> > πιστευεισ εισ τον ξριστον> >> > or us all:> >> > πιστευομεν εισ τον ξριστον <Snip> Virgil Newkirk Salt Lake CityGS:> εισ τον χριστον never appears in the ντ as a qualification of the verb> πιστευω. In 2 Cor 11.3 we find> > φοβουμαι δε μη πωσ, hWS hO οφισ εξεπαθσεν ευαν εν THi PANOURGIAi αυτου,> FQARHi τα νοηματα hUMWN απο θσ hAPOLTHTOS [και θσ hAGNOTHTOS] θσ εισ> τον χριστον> > It does appear in Acts 19.4 in the Byz Maj and τρ texts which have εισ> τον χριστον, but not in the critical texts which have ιησουν rather than> χριστον> > hINA πιστευσωσιν, τουτ‘ εστιν εισ τον ιησουν.> > Of course, one might say that this is virtually the same thing.> > george> gfsomselβν:Yes, George, as you say.However, (not to be picky) but Mitch’s question was not how the Greek New Testament expresses ‘faith in/toward Christ’, but was:Can the expression “faith in/toward Christ” (where a person’s faith is directed toward Christ) be expressed in Greek unambiguously?Thus my response with the three following examples: πιστευουσι εισ τον ξριστον or you, Mitch: πιστευεισ εισ τον ξριστον or us all: πιστευομεν εισ τον CRISTONThe point being, ι think, from Mitch; what about all these so-called instances of ambiguity….is it really so ?As far as the γντ; we find numerous examples of the unambiguous expression of ‘faith in/toward Christ.’We find very clear and economical expressions of ‘faith in/toward Christ’ ‘νοτ‘ in δια πιστεωσ ιησου χριστου (note different translations from different scholars), but in the following:John 2:11….επιστευσαν εισ AUTONJohn 3:16…πασ hO πιστευων εισ AUTONJohn 3:18…hO πιστευων εισ AUTONJohn 3:36…hO πιστευων εισ τον hUIONJohn 6:29…πιστευητε εισ hONJohn 6:40…πιστευων εισ AUTONJohn 7:5 …negated επιστευον εισ AUTONJohn 7:31…επιστευσαν εισ AUTONJohn 7:38…hO πιστευων εισ EMEJohn 7:39…hOI πιστευσαντεσ εισ AUTONActs 8:37…πιστευω τον hUIONActs 9:42…πολλοι επι τον KURIONRomans 9:33…hO πιστευων επ AUTWi1Peter 1:8 …τουσ πιστουσ εισ QEONand a final example from 1John5:13…τοισ πιστευουσιν εισ το ονομα του hUIOU του QEOUSurely these are clear and concise statements (by four different authors btw) in the γντ, expressing ‘faith in/toward Christ and God.’Virgil NewkirkSalt Lake City
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22
Mon Apr 10 11:22:09 εδτ 2006
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22 [] Mark 3:14 Speaking of ambiguity, consider my first question agood example of just that, unintentionally. Afterreading some of the replies, ι actually would now liketo ask yet another question.Is there a different preposition phrase, that can besubstituted for δια πιστεωσ, that would remove theambiguity (so that it would be either a Subjective orObjective meaning)? Rather than completely changing anominal (δια πιστεωσ) expression into a verbal one (assome examples pointed out), could Tertius have used ENor προσ or εισ plus a Genitive or Accusative? If so,ι‘ve got to believe that the ambiguity was intentional.Mitch LarramoreSugar Land, Texas__________________________________________________Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[] δια πιστεωσ ιησου ξριστου – Rom. 3.22[] Mark 3:14