[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) γλενν αλλεν gandcallen66 at msn.com
Sat Nov 26 08:23:45 εστ 2005
[] Luke 21:8 [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) Hi people,ι would really appreciate your input on a question regarding the English translation from Greek of a particular verse of scripture that ι‘m researching. Someone told me that the verb tense of Revelation 11:3, which deals with those who are mysteriously called “two witnesses” (whoever they are!), is in the “Aorist tense” in Greek. Even after looking up and reading the definition of the “Aorist tense,” and since ι‘m just a newcomer to Greek, ι would like to understand how that might alter the way the verse could be translated into English. Obviously, in English it is simply presented in the future tense: “And ι will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy…” Therefore, in your opinion (anyone!), how might the “Aorist” verb tense alter the usual translation? Thanks for any help with this you can provide!In Christ,Glenn Allen (Bartow, φλ)
[] Luke 21:8[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) kgraham0938 at comcast.net kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Sat Nov 26 08:54:16 εστ 2005
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) @Glen: Rev 11:3KAI δωσω τοισ δυσιν μαρτυσιν μου και προφητευσουσιν hHMERAS ξιλιασ διακοσιασ hEXHKONTA περιβεβλημενοι σακκουσ Welcome to . ι think your friend may have been a little off, the first verb δωσω is future tense of διδωμι which means “give.” So you’d get “and ι will give.”And the second verb προφητευσουσιν is also future, meaning and “they will prophesy.” The last verb is περιβεβλημενοι and that is a perfect participle of περιβαλλω which means “to put on something, normally some form of clothing.” So there is no aorist in Rev 11:3. If an aorist were there everything would be in the past tense.–Kelton Graham KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net————– Original message ————– > Hi people, > > ι would really appreciate your input on a question regarding the English > translation from Greek of a particular verse of scripture that ι‘m researching. > Someone told me that the verb tense of Revelation 11:3, which deals with those > who are mysteriously called “two witnesses” (whoever they are!), is in the > “Aorist tense” in Greek. > > Even after looking up and reading the definition of the “Aorist tense,” and > since ι‘m just a newcomer to Greek, ι would like to understand how that might > alter the way the verse could be translated into English. Obviously, in English > it is simply presented in the future tense: “And ι will give power unto my two > witnesses, and they shall prophesy…” Therefore, in your opinion (anyone!), how > might the “Aorist” verb tense alter the usual translation? > > Thanks for any help with this you can provide! > > In Christ, > Glenn Allen (Bartow, φλ) > — > home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ > mailing list > at lists.ibiblio.org > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) Juan Stam juanstam at racsa.co.cr
Mon Nov 28 08:24:22 εστ 2005
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) [] Another question about Lev. 23:11 Greetings from Costa Rica!Los tiempos verbales in Rev 11 seem chaotic, switching constantly with no apparent reason ι can find. 11:3 is futuro but 4-6 switches to past, the 11:7 back to future, 11:8-10b in present, 11:10c in future, 11:10d-14a om aorist and 11:14b in present. (Hope ι recorded these correctly; at any rate, there seems to be no consistency or logic in the tenses)Or can someone explain all those shifts?If not, the future tense of 11:3 tells us little or nothing about the narrative of 11:3-13, that ι can discover.Juan Stam, Costa Rica—– Original Message —– From: <kgraham0938 at comcast.net>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:54 AMSubject: Re: [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)> @Glen: Rev 11:3> > και δωσω τοισ δυσιν μαρτυσιν μου και προφητευσουσιν hHMERAS ξιλιασ > διακοσιασ hEXHKONTA περιβεβλημενοι σακκουσ> Welcome to . ι think your friend may have been a little off, the > first verb δωσω is future tense of διδωμι which means “give.”> So you’d get “and ι will give.”> And the second verb προφητευσουσιν is also future, meaning and “they will > prophesy.” The last verb is περιβεβλημενοι and that is a perfect > participle of περιβαλλω which means “to put on something, normally some > form of clothing.”> So there is no aorist in Rev 11:3. If an aorist were there everything > would be in the past tense.> > > > —> Kelton Graham> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net> > ————– Original message ————– > >> Hi people,>> >> ι would really appreciate your input on a question regarding the English>> translation from Greek of a particular verse of scripture that ι‘m >> researching.>> Someone told me that the verb tense of Revelation 11:3, which deals with >> those>> who are mysteriously called “two witnesses” (whoever they are!), is in >> the>> “Aorist tense” in Greek.>> >> Even after looking up and reading the definition of the “Aorist tense,” >> and>> since ι‘m just a newcomer to Greek, ι would like to understand how that >> might>> alter the way the verse could be translated into English. Obviously, in >> English>> it is simply presented in the future tense: “And ι will give power unto >> my two>> witnesses, and they shall prophesy…” Therefore, in your opinion >> (anyone!), how>> might the “Aorist” verb tense alter the usual translation?>> >> Thanks for any help with this you can provide!>> >> In Christ,>> Glenn Allen (Bartow, φλ)>> — >> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)[] Another question about Lev. 23:11
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) George φ Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Mon Nov 28 09:17:59 εστ 2005
[] Another question about Lev. 23:11 [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:24:22 -0600 Juan Stam <juanstam at racsa.co.cr>writes:> > Greetings from Costa Rica!> > Los tiempos verbales in Rev 11 seem chaotic, switching constantly > with no > apparent reason ι can find. 11:3 is futuro but 4-6 switches to past, > the > 11:7 back to future, 11:8-10b in present, 11:10c in future, > 11:10d-14a om > aorist and 11:14b in present. (Hope ι recorded these correctly; at > any rate, > there seems to be no consistency or logic in the tenses)> > Or can someone explain all those shifts?> If not, the future tense of 11:3 tells us little or nothing about > the > narrative of 11:3-13, that ι can discover.> > Juan Stam, Costa Rica____________It would seem to me that vv. 4 ff constitute a kind of parenthesis inwhich a description of the nature of the two witnesses is given (thus inthe present). The narrative resumes in v. 7 with the future moreprobable statement that when they have completed (aor subj) theirtestimony the beast “will conduct war against them and will conquer”(future) them. The shift in tenses is thus due to the descriptive natureof the parenthetical material.georgegfsomsel___________
[] Another question about Lev. 23:11[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)
Mon Nov 28 09:22:47 εστ 2005
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) Very helpful, Goerge, but then how do you explain the aorists in 11:10-14?Juan, Costa Rica—– Original Message —– From: “George φ Somsel” <gfsomsel at juno.com>To: <juanstam at racsa.co.cr>Cc: <kgraham0938 at comcast.net>; < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 8:17 AMSubject: Re: [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)> On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:24:22 -0600 Juan Stam <juanstam at racsa.co.cr>> writes:>> >> Greetings from Costa Rica!>> >> Los tiempos verbales in Rev 11 seem chaotic, switching constantly >> with no >> apparent reason ι can find. 11:3 is futuro but 4-6 switches to past, >> the >> 11:7 back to future, 11:8-10b in present, 11:10c in future, >> 11:10d-14a om >> aorist and 11:14b in present. (Hope ι recorded these correctly; at >> any rate, >> there seems to be no consistency or logic in the tenses)>> >> Or can someone explain all those shifts?>> If not, the future tense of 11:3 tells us little or nothing about >> the >> narrative of 11:3-13, that ι can discover.>> >> Juan Stam, Costa Rica> ____________> > It would seem to me that vv. 4 ff constitute a kind of parenthesis in> which a description of the nature of the two witnesses is given (thus in> the present). The narrative resumes in v. 7 with the future more> probable statement that when they have completed (aor subj) their> testimony the beast “will conduct war against them and will conquer”> (future) them. The shift in tenses is thus due to the descriptive nature> of the parenthetical material.> > george> gfsomsel> ___________
Mon Nov 28 10:38:22 εστ 2005
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) [] Eph 1:13 – Hearing, Believing and “Sealed” On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:22:47 -0600 Juan Stam <juanstam at racsa.co.cr>writes:> > Very helpful, Goerge, but then how do you explain the aorists in > 11:10-14?_______________ 10 και hOI κατοικουντεσ επι θσ γησ χαιρουσιν επ‘ αυτοισ και ευφραινονταικαι δωρα πεμυουσιν αλληλοισ, hOTI hOUTOI hOI δυο προφηται εβασανισαν τουσκατοικουντασ επι θσ γησ.11 και μετα τασ τρεισ hHMERAS και hHMISSU πνευμα ζωησ εκ του θεουεισηλθεν εν αυτοισ, και εσθσαν επι τουσ ποδασ αυτων, και φοβοσ μεγασεπεπεσεν επι τουσ θεωρουντασ αυτουσ.12 και ηκουσαν φωνησ μεγαλησ εκ του ουρανου λεγουσησ αυτοισ, ANABATEhWDE. και ανεβησαν εισ τον ουρανον εν THi NEFELHi, και εθεωῥσαν AUTOUShOI εχθροι αυτων.13 και εν EKEINHi THi hWRAi εγενετο σεισμοσ μεγασ και το δεκατον θσπολεωσ επεσεν και απεκτανθησαν εν TWi SEISMWi ονοματα ανθρωπων XILIADEShEPTA και hOI λοιποι εμφοβοι εγενοντο και εδωκαν δοξαν TWi QEWi τουουρανου.10. κατοικουντεσ — pres act part nom masc pl χαιρουσιν — pres act ind 3 pl ευφραινονται — pres pass ind 3 pl πεμυουσιν — fut act ind 3 pl εβασανισαν — aor act ind 3 pl κατοικουντασ — pres act part acc masc pl11. εισηλθεν — aor act ind 3 sg εσθσαν — aor act ind 3 pl επεπεσεν — aor act ind 3 sg θεωρουντασ — pres act part acc masc pl12. ηκουσαν — aor act ind 3 pl λεγουσησ — pres act part gen fem sg αναβατε — aor act impv 2 pl ανεβησαν — aor act ind 3 pl εθεωῥσαν — aor act ind 3 pl13. εγενετο — aor mid ind 3 sg επεσεν — aor act ind 3 sg απεκτανθησαν — aor pass ind 3 pl εγενοντο — aor mid ind 3 pl εδωκαν — aor ind act 3 pl14. αφλθεν — aor act ind 3 sg ερχεται — pres mid ind 3 sg As you can see from the chart above the tense changes in v. 10 and vv. 11ff (Can we agree to ignore the participles since they really aren’ttemporal?). In v. 10 εβασανισαν refers to a previous action of the twowitnesses upon the basis of which the inhabitants are now viewed asrejoicing. In vv. 11 ff, however, we have (as the discourse analysispeople like to put it) a change in the deictic center. We are no longerviewing it from the standpoint of that which is to happen at some time inthe future but as a contemporary or even past event (μετα τασ TREIShHMERAS και hHMISU). At this point the verbs likewise change to aoristuntil we reach 14b at which point we are again placed in a position oflooking forward (ερχεται).georgegfsomsel___________
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense)[] Eph 1:13 – Hearing, Believing and “Sealed”
Mon Nov 28 18:33:24 εστ 2005
[] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) Juan,My initial question about the verb tenses in 11:3 originally started this thread, because ι am trying to determine–from St. John’s position as observer of these future events–whether the 1,260 day period (3.5 years) during which the Two Witnesses prophesy corresponds to either the first half of the seven-year period or to the second half. Someone told me (and apparently it wasn’t accurate) that 11:3 is in the aorist, suggesting that from John’s viewpoint at the moment he sees them(ie, with the events associated with the previous five trumpets now past, and the six not yet concluded) that the Witnesses had already begun their prophesy before, suggesting their ministry corresponds to the first 3.5 years rather than the second. Any thoughts?Glenn —– Original Message —– From: Juan Stam<mailto:juanstam at racsa.co.cr> To: George φ Somsel<mailto:gfsomsel at juno.com> Cc: kgraham0938 at comcast.net<mailto:kgraham0938 at comcast.net> ; at lists.ibiblio.org<mailto: at lists.ibiblio.org> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 9:22 αμ Subject: Re: [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) Very helpful, Goerge, but then how do you explain the aorists in 11:10-14? Juan, Costa Rica —– Original Message —– From: “George φ Somsel” <gfsomsel at juno.com<mailto:gfsomsel at juno.com>> To: <juanstam at racsa.co.cr<mailto:juanstam at racsa.co.cr>> Cc: <kgraham0938 at comcast.net<mailto:kgraham0938 at comcast.net>>; < at lists.ibiblio.org<mailto: at lists.ibiblio.org>> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 8:17 αμ Subject: Re: [] Revelation 11:3 (Verb Tense) > On Mon, 28 Nov 2005 07:24:22 -0600 Juan Stam <juanstam at racsa.co.cr<mailto:juanstam at racsa.co.cr>> > writes: >> >> Greetings from Costa Rica! >> >> Los tiempos verbales in Rev 11 seem chaotic, switching constantly >> with no >> apparent reason ι can find. 11:3 is futuro but 4-6 switches to past, >> the >> 11:7 back to future, 11:8-10b in present, 11:10c in future, >> 11:10d-14a om >> aorist and 11:14b in present. (Hope ι recorded these correctly; at >> any rate, >> there seems to be no consistency or logic in the tenses) >> >> Or can someone explain all those shifts? >> If not, the future tense of 11:3 tells us little or nothing about >> the >> narrative of 11:3-13, that ι can discover. >> >> Juan Stam, Costa Rica > ____________ > > It would seem to me that vv. 4 ff constitute a kind of parenthesis in > which a description of the nature of the two witnesses is given (thus in > the present). The narrative resumes in v. 7 with the future more > probable statement that when they have completed (aor subj) their > testimony the beast “will conduct war against them and will conquer” > (future) them. The shift in tenses is thus due to the descriptive nature > of the parenthetical material. > > george > gfsomsel > ___________ — home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/<http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list at lists.ibiblio.org<mailto: at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/<http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>
[] Rev 11:3 John β. Senterfitt millenia05 at earthlink.net
Wed Nov 15 19:51:44 εστ 2006
[] Rev. 8:9–what died? [] θυεστιονσ Webb Mealy wrote; In Rev. 11:3 John says, ι‘m going to give [??] to my two witnesses. Here where you have the two ?? marks has in the κψβ, the italicized word {power} indicating the apprehension for using a verb here. However the word translated [authority] is used in verse 6 and if viewed as befitting for verse 3 then we have the concept of permission being given for all that the two witnesses are to do. There are three other words and this one making four that could well be translated as authority but this one seems to fit best.και δωσω τοισ δυσιν μαρτυσιν μου Is there any way of being confident of what the implied direct object ishere? Most translations have “power” or “authority”, but ι can imagine “acommand”, “a testimony”, or, as ι‘ve rendered it, “a message”. Not sure that ι care to comment of the “direct object” but the subject may well be the “reed” in verse one and the complementary words following, “like unto-a-rod.Now that ι have shown my country maybe somebody else will chime in here. ι‘m going to give a message to my two witnesses. And they’re going toprophesy. Any help would be appreciated. John β. Senterfitt
[] Rev. 8:9–what died?[] θυεστιονσ