Romans 15.18-19 Mark Goodacre M.S.GOODACRE at bham.ac.uk
Tue Jul 13 06:17:45 EDT 1999
Revelation 13.15-17 Romans 15.18-19 Rom 15.18-19:OU GAR TOLMHSW TI LALEIN hWN OU KATEIRGASATO XRISTOS DI EMOU EIS hUPAKOHN EQNWN, LOGWi KAI ERGWi, EN DUNAMEI SHMEIWN KAI TERATWN, EN DUNAMEI PNEUMATOS [QEOU].NIV, RSV and NASB all translate with something like this: “I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done . . .” I am interested in this “except” clause. Surely the most natural reading is not “I will not dare . . . except” but rather “I will not dare to speak of those things which Christ has not done through me . . .” Is there any justification for the standard translation?ThanksMark————————————–Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre at bham.ac.uk Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512 University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866 Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdomhttp://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre The New Testament Gateway Mark Without Q Aseneth Home Page
Revelation 13.15-17Romans 15.18-19
Romans 15.18-19 Mark Goodacre M.S.GOODACRE at bham.ac.uk
Tue Jul 13 06:17:45 EDT 1999
Revelation 13.15-17 Romans 15.18-19 Rom 15.18-19:OU GAR TOLMHSW TI LALEIN hWN OU KATEIRGASATO XRISTOS DI EMOU EIS hUPAKOHN EQNWN, LOGWi KAI ERGWi, EN DUNAMEI SHMEIWN KAI TERATWN, EN DUNAMEI PNEUMATOS [QEOU].NIV, RSV and NASB all translate with something like this: “I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done . . .” I am interested in this “except” clause. Surely the most natural reading is not “I will not dare . . . except” but rather “I will not dare to speak of those things which Christ has not done through me . . .” Is there any justification for the standard translation?ThanksMark————————————–Dr Mark Goodacre mailto:M.S.Goodacre at bham.ac.uk Dept of Theology tel: +44 121 414 7512 University of Birmingham fax: +44 121 414 6866 Birmingham B15 2TT United Kingdomhttp://www.bham.ac.uk/theology/goodacre The New Testament Gateway Mark Without Q Aseneth Home Page
Revelation 13.15-17Romans 15.18-19
Romans 15.18-19 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Jul 13 06:47:35 EDT 1999
Romans 15.18-19 EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 At 10:17 AM +0000 7/13/99, Mark Goodacre wrote:>Rom 15.18-19:> >OU GAR TOLMHSW TI LALEIN hWN OU KATEIRGASATO>XRISTOS DI EMOU EIS hUPAKOHN EQNWN, LOGWi KAI ERGWi,>EN DUNAMEI SHMEIWN KAI TERATWN, EN DUNAMEI>PNEUMATOS [QEOU].> >NIV, RSV and NASB all translate with something like this: “I will not venture>to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in>leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done . . .” I am>interested in this “except” clause. Surely the most natural reading is>not “I will>not dare . . . except” but rather “I will not dare to speak of those>things which>Christ has not done through me . . .” Is there any justification for the>standard>translation?Mark, I think this MAY be more a question, as you put it, of what is more”natural” in English. While I’ll agree that “I will not dare to speak ofthose things which Christ has not done through me” is LITERALLY ACCURATE, IDON’T think it is natural English. Rather I think this is an instance ofrhetorical litotes–the rhetorical double negative–that doesn’t carry overnaturally into literal English expression; I think this is in the samecategory as the Latin NON NULLI, NON … NISI expressions. I do think thatthe MORE NATURAL English expression for what Paul is saying here would be,”I shall speak ONLY of what Christ has accomplished through me …”I guess your question amounts to whether hWN OU is equivalent to EI MH hWN;for my part, I think that it is.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Romans 15.18-19EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7
Romans 15.18-19 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Jul 13 06:47:35 EDT 1999
Romans 15.18-19 EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7 At 10:17 AM +0000 7/13/99, Mark Goodacre wrote:>Rom 15.18-19:> >OU GAR TOLMHSW TI LALEIN hWN OU KATEIRGASATO>XRISTOS DI EMOU EIS hUPAKOHN EQNWN, LOGWi KAI ERGWi,>EN DUNAMEI SHMEIWN KAI TERATWN, EN DUNAMEI>PNEUMATOS [QEOU].> >NIV, RSV and NASB all translate with something like this: “I will not venture>to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in>leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done . . .” I am>interested in this “except” clause. Surely the most natural reading is>not “I will>not dare . . . except” but rather “I will not dare to speak of those>things which>Christ has not done through me . . .” Is there any justification for the>standard>translation?Mark, I think this MAY be more a question, as you put it, of what is more”natural” in English. While I’ll agree that “I will not dare to speak ofthose things which Christ has not done through me” is LITERALLY ACCURATE, IDON’T think it is natural English. Rather I think this is an instance ofrhetorical litotes–the rhetorical double negative–that doesn’t carry overnaturally into literal English expression; I think this is in the samecategory as the Latin NON NULLI, NON … NISI expressions. I do think thatthe MORE NATURAL English expression for what Paul is saying here would be,”I shall speak ONLY of what Christ has accomplished through me …”I guess your question amounts to whether hWN OU is equivalent to EI MH hWN;for my part, I think that it is.Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington UniversitySummer: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Romans 15.18-19EN XRISTWi IHSOU-Phil. 4:7
Romans 15.18-19 N & RJ Hanscamp nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
Tue Jul 13 22:46:52 EDT 1999
digest: July 12, 1999 Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith Mark wrote:>NIV, RSV and NASB all translate with something like this: “I will notventure>to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in>leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done . . .” I am>interested in this “except” clause. Surely the most natural reading is not“I will>not dare . . . except” but rather “I will not dare to speak of those thingswhich>Christ has not done through me . . .” Is there any justification for thestandard>translation?MarkCK Barrett uses a similar transl. to yours”For I will not dare to say anything of the things which Christ did notcarry out through me for the obedience (1.5) of the Gentiles.” (*The Epistleto the Romans.* Black’s New Testament Commentaries1957. p276)He also notes the confusion of the sentence because of all that Paul istrying to say in it.NigelNigel and Rebecca HanscampTrinity Methodist Theological CollegeAuckland Consortium of Theological Education, New ZealandEmail: nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
digest: July 12, 1999Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith
Romans 15.18-19 N & RJ Hanscamp nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
Tue Jul 13 22:46:52 EDT 1999
digest: July 12, 1999 Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith Mark wrote:>NIV, RSV and NASB all translate with something like this: “I will notventure>to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in>leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done . . .” I am>interested in this “except” clause. Surely the most natural reading is not“I will>not dare . . . except” but rather “I will not dare to speak of those thingswhich>Christ has not done through me . . .” Is there any justification for thestandard>translation?MarkCK Barrett uses a similar transl. to yours”For I will not dare to say anything of the things which Christ did notcarry out through me for the obedience (1.5) of the Gentiles.” (*The Epistleto the Romans.* Black’s New Testament Commentaries1957. p276)He also notes the confusion of the sentence because of all that Paul istrying to say in it.NigelNigel and Rebecca HanscampTrinity Methodist Theological CollegeAuckland Consortium of Theological Education, New ZealandEmail: nar.hanscamp at clear.net.nz
digest: July 12, 1999Logos/Dao-Cindy Smith
Romans 15:18-19 Paul knows that all of his success belongs to what Christ has done through him. God’s goal is to make the Gentiles obedient. Obedience is a term used to encapsulate both concepts of believing in and obeying Christ that Paul unfolds in Romans. Paul wants his readers to obey the command to believe in Christ and to obey the command to follow Christ (cf. 1:5; 10:16). Obviously Paul not only brought God’s message through doctrine and actions in mighty signs and wonders (see 2 Cor 12:12) but it came through the power of the Spirit (cf. Rom 15:13). As a result of the Spirit’s power Paul had great success, from Jerusalem to Illyricum (i.e., modern-day Yugoslavia and northern Albania), in preaching the gospel (cf. 1:1,15-16) of Christ. Obviously Paul did not preach to every individual in these regions, but he covered these areas by planting the seed where Christ was never preached.