[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Wed Sep 15 05:46:45 EDT 2010
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 [] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 On Sep 14, 2010, at 10:55 PM, P R wrote:> I am looking through the NT to see how reliant it was on the LXX, and I came> across Rom 9.12 (“The elder shall serve the younger”).> > I am looking at this verse as a most probable reference to the LXX, because> the word Paul used here for “younger,” elasswn (think I got my TLG right),> is used only here in the NT to mean “younger.” Elsewhere, it means “fewer”> or “less.” The more common NT word was neos, which was used 4 times to mean> young, and another 8 times in its comparative form.> > OK. Is this sufficient reason to see Paul as quoting from the LXX here, or> is there any other reason why elasswn might have been used here, whereby he> might simply have been translating whatever version of the OT he had, into> Greek? The Masoretic text has the same reading here.BDAG, s.v. MEGAS/μέγας 1.d:d. of age (Jos., Ant. 12, 207 μικρὸς ἢ μέγας=‘young or old’); to include all concerned μικροὶ καὶ μεγάλοι small and great (PGM 15, 18) Rv 11:18; 13:16; 19:5, 18; 20:12. μικρῷ τε καὶ μεγάλῳ Ac 26:22. ἀπὸ μικροῦ ἕως μεγάλου (Gen 19:11; 4 Km 23:2; 2 Ch 34:30; POxy 1350) 8:10; Hb 8:11 (Jer 38:34). μέγας γενόμενος when he was grown up 11:24 (Ex 2:11). ὁ μείζων the older (O. Wilck II, 144, 3 [128 AD]; 213, 3; 1199, 2; LXX; cp. Polyb. 18, 18, 9 Σκιπίων ὁ μέγας; 32, 12, 1) Ro 9:12; B 13:2 (both Gen 25:23).I don’t think this is anything distinctly Semtiic. Contemporary Latin, of course, uses MAIOR and MINOR for “older” and “younger” — Polybius in BDAG’s citation has simply turned the Latin name “Scipio Major” into its Greek equivalent. I’m reminded of an elderly friend whose granddaughter was named for her; how should the two be distinguished? “Well,” she said, “you can call me “Big Jane” or “Old Jane,” but you don’t call me “Big Old Jane.”Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 P R prittman at gmail.com
Thu Sep 16 13:54:33 EDT 2010
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 [] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 I was thinking more along the lines of Paul’s choice of words for “younger,”(elasswn). Because this wasn’t the normal word that would be used to signify”younger,” was this evidence that Paul was deliberately following the LXXhere?Paul RittmanOn Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:46 AM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:> > > > > BDAG, s.v. MEGAS/μέγας 1.d:> d. of age (Jos., Ant. 12, 207 μικρὸς ἢ μέγας=‘young or old’); to> include all concerned μικροὶ καὶ μεγάλοι small and great (PGM 15, 18) Rv> 11:18; 13:16; 19:5, 18; 20:12. μικρῷ τε καὶ μεγάλῳ Ac 26:22. ἀπὸ μικροῦ ἕως> μεγάλου (Gen 19:11; 4 Km 23:2; 2 Ch 34:30; POxy 1350) 8:10; Hb 8:11 (Jer> 38:34). μέγας γενόμενος when he was grown up 11:24 (Ex 2:11). ὁ μείζων the> older (O. Wilck II, 144, 3 [128 AD]; 213, 3; 1199, 2; LXX; cp. Polyb. 18,> 18, 9 Σκιπίων ὁ μέγας; 32, 12, 1) Ro 9:12; B 13:2 (both Gen 25:23).> > I don’t think this is anything distinctly Semtiic. Contemporary Latin, of> course, uses MAIOR and MINOR for “older” and “younger” — Polybius in BDAG’s> citation has simply turned the Latin name “Scipio Major” into its Greek> equivalent. I’m reminded of an elderly friend whose granddaughter was named> for her; how should the two be distinguished? “Well,” she said, “you can> call me “Big Jane” or “Old Jane,” but you don’t call me “Big Old Jane.”> > Carl W. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> > > >
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Thu Sep 16 15:15:13 EDT 2010
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 [] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Aren’t you creating your own problem by insisting that Rom 9:12 is speaking of “older” and “younger” when neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of Gen 25:23 is speaking of “older” and “younger”? Moreover, since Rom 9 is explicitly about Rebecca and the birth of Jacob and Esau, is there any doubt that Gen 25:23 is being cited?AlOn Sep 16, 2010, at 1:54 PM, P R wrote:> I was thinking more along the lines of Paul’s choice of words for > “younger,”> (elasswn). Because this wasn’t the normal word that would be used to > signify> “younger,” was this evidence that Paul was deliberately following > the LXX> here?> > Paul Rittman> > > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:46 AM, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> > wrote:> >> >> >> >> >> BDAG, s.v. MEGAS/μέγας 1.d:>> d. of age (Jos., Ant. 12, 207 μικρὸς ἢ >> μέγας=‘young or old’); to>> include all concerned μικροὶ καὶ μεγάλοι small and >> great (PGM 15, 18) Rv>> 11:18; 13:16; 19:5, 18; 20:12. μικρῷ τε καὶ >> μεγάλῳ Ac 26:22. ἀπὸ μικροῦ ἕως>> μεγάλου (Gen 19:11; 4 Km 23:2; 2 Ch 34:30; POxy 1350) 8:10; >> Hb 8:11 (Jer>> 38:34). μέγας γενόμενος when he was grown up 11:24 (Ex >> 2:11). ὁ μείζων the>> older (O. Wilck II, 144, 3 [128 AD]; 213, 3; 1199, 2; LXX; cp. >> Polyb. 18,>> 18, 9 Σκιπίων ὁ μέγας; 32, 12, 1) Ro 9:12; B 13:2 >> (both Gen 25:23).>> >> I don’t think this is anything distinctly Semtiic. Contemporary >> Latin, of>> course, uses MAIOR and MINOR for “older” and “younger” — Polybius >> in BDAG’s>> citation has simply turned the Latin name “Scipio Major” into its >> Greek>> equivalent. I’m reminded of an elderly friend whose granddaughter >> was named>> for her; how should the two be distinguished? “Well,” she said, >> “you can>> call me “Big Jane” or “Old Jane,” but you don’t call me “Big Old >> Jane.”>> >> Carl W. Conrad>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)>> >> >> >> > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/—Albert Pietersma PhD21 Cross Street,Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.caHomepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 P R prittman at gmail.com
Thu Sep 16 19:33:02 EDT 2010
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 [] (no subject) I have to admit I’m a bit surprised by your response. The translators ofthe NIV, REB, KJV, and ESV (and I’m assuming these translations would notall be following the LXX here) all interpret the words of both Rom 9.12 andGen 25.23 to refer to older and younger (as does Brenton and the firstJewish Publication Society translation, with Gen 25). If you disagree withthose interpretations, please explain.As far as your second question, no I don’t believe there is any such doubt.That’s one reason why I asked my question.Paul RittmanOn Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> wrote:> Aren’t you creating your own problem by insisting that Rom 9:12 is speaking> of “older” and “younger” when neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of Gen 25:23> is speaking of “older” and “younger”? Moreover, since Rom 9 is explicitly> about Rebecca and the birth of Jacob and Esau, is there any doubt that Gen> 25:23 is being cited?> Al> > On Sep 16, 2010, at 1:54 PM, P R wrote:> > I was thinking more along the lines of Paul’s choice of words for>> “younger,”>> (elasswn). Because this wasn’t the normal word that would be used to>> signify>> “younger,” was this evidence that Paul was deliberately following the LXX>> here?>> >> Paul Rittman>> >> >> >
[] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12[] (no subject)
[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Thu Sep 16 21:53:45 EDT 2010
[] My new Greek website… [] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Begin forwarded message:> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>> Date: September 16, 2010 8:00:44 PM GMT-04:00> To: P R <prittman at gmail.com>> Cc: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>> Subject: Re: [] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12> > You apparently have not read NETS.> Al> On Sep 16, 2010, at 7:33 PM, P R wrote:> >> I have to admit I’m a bit surprised by your response. The >> translators of>> the NIV, REB, KJV, and ESV (and I’m assuming these translations >> would not>> all be following the LXX here) all interpret the words of both Rom >> 9.12 and>> Gen 25.23 to refer to older and younger (as does Brenton and the >> first>> Jewish Publication Society translation, with Gen 25). If you >> disagree with>> those interpretations, please explain.>> >> As far as your second question, no I don’t believe there is any >> such doubt.>> That’s one reason why I asked my question.>> >> Paul Rittman>> >> >> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Albert Pietersma <>> albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> wrote:>> >>> Aren’t you creating your own problem by insisting that Rom 9:12 is >>> speaking>>> of “older” and “younger” when neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of >>> Gen 25:23>>> is speaking of “older” and “younger”? Moreover, since Rom 9 is >>> explicitly>>> about Rebecca and the birth of Jacob and Esau, is there any doubt >>> that Gen>>> 25:23 is being cited?>>> Al>>> >>> On Sep 16, 2010, at 1:54 PM, P R wrote:>>> >>> I was thinking more along the lines of Paul’s choice of words for>>>> “younger,”>>>> (elasswn). Because this wasn’t the normal word that would be used >>>> to>>>> signify>>>> “younger,” was this evidence that Paul was deliberately following >>>> the LXX>>>> here?>>>> >>>> Paul Rittman>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> —>> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>> > > —> Albert Pietersma PhD> 21 Cross Street,> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm> > —Albert Pietersma PhD21 Cross Street,Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.caHomepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
[] My new Greek website…[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12
[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Albert Pietersma albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Thu Sep 16 21:54:03 EDT 2010
[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 [] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Begin forwarded message:> From: P R <prittman at gmail.com>> Date: September 16, 2010 8:10:59 PM GMT-04:00> To: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>> Subject: Re: [] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12> > Greater and lesser. That would explain away the “problem.”> I was going to suggest that as an alternate….> > OK I’ll be sure to look up the NETS before asking any more > translation questions.> > Paul Rittman> > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca > > wrote:> You apparently have not read NETS.> Al> > On Sep 16, 2010, at 7:33 PM, P R wrote:> > I have to admit I’m a bit surprised by your response. The > translators of> the NIV, REB, KJV, and ESV (and I’m assuming these translations > would not> all be following the LXX here) all interpret the words of both Rom > 9.12 and> Gen 25.23 to refer to older and younger (as does Brenton and the first> Jewish Publication Society translation, with Gen 25). If you > disagree with> those interpretations, please explain.> > As far as your second question, no I don’t believe there is any such > doubt.> That’s one reason why I asked my question.> > Paul Rittman> > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Albert Pietersma <> albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> wrote:> > Aren’t you creating your own problem by insisting that Rom 9:12 is > speaking> of “older” and “younger” when neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of > Gen 25:23> is speaking of “older” and “younger”? Moreover, since Rom 9 is > explicitly> about Rebecca and the birth of Jacob and Esau, is there any doubt > that Gen> 25:23 is being cited?> Al> > On Sep 16, 2010, at 1:54 PM, P R wrote:> > I was thinking more along the lines of Paul’s choice of words for> “younger,”> (elasswn). Because this wasn’t the normal word that would be used to> signify> “younger,” was this evidence that Paul was deliberately following > the LXX> here?> > Paul Rittman> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > —> Albert Pietersma PhD> 21 Cross Street,> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm> > —Albert Pietersma PhD21 Cross Street,Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.caHomepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12
[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 Bryant J. Williams III bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Fri Sep 17 00:20:11 EDT 2010
[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12 [] MH EPI TOUTOIS in Jer. 5:9, 29, 9:8 LXX Dear Paul & Albert,I would recommend reading the section of Beale & Carson’s, Commentary on the NTUse of the OT, pp. 639-641, by Mark Seifrid. “Paul’s quotation of Gen. 25:23, which follows both the LXX and MT, takes uponly the second part of the oracle given to Rebecca, who ‘inquired of the Lord’because of the struggle between the twin children in her womb…. The finalword, which Paul cites here, comes therefore as a surprising reversal, contraryto expectation and custom: ‘the greater shall serve the lesser.’… The Lord’schoice of the latter-born Jacob as ‘the beloved son’ is part of the pattern ofthe story of Genesis, which has appeared already with Isaac, will appear againwith Joseph, and yet again in the blessing of Ephraim and Manasseh (Levenson1993)” (pp. 640-641).En Xristwi,Rev. Bryant J. Williams III—– Original Message —– From: “Albert Pietersma” <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 6:54 PMSubject: [] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12Begin forwarded message:> From: P R <prittman at gmail.com>> Date: September 16, 2010 8:10:59 PM GMT-04:00> To: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>> Subject: Re: [] Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12> > Greater and lesser. That would explain away the “problem.”> I was going to suggest that as an alternate….> > OK I’ll be sure to look up the NETS before asking any more> translation questions.> > Paul Rittman> > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Albert Pietersma<albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> > wrote:> You apparently have not read NETS.> Al> > On Sep 16, 2010, at 7:33 PM, P R wrote:> > I have to admit I’m a bit surprised by your response. The> translators of> the NIV, REB, KJV, and ESV (and I’m assuming these translations> would not> all be following the LXX here) all interpret the words of both Rom> 9.12 and> Gen 25.23 to refer to older and younger (as does Brenton and the first> Jewish Publication Society translation, with Gen 25). If you> disagree with> those interpretations, please explain.> > As far as your second question, no I don’t believe there is any such> doubt.> That’s one reason why I asked my question.> > Paul Rittman> > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Albert Pietersma <> albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> wrote:> > Aren’t you creating your own problem by insisting that Rom 9:12 is> speaking> of “older” and “younger” when neither the Hebrew nor the Greek of> Gen 25:23> is speaking of “older” and “younger”? Moreover, since Rom 9 is> explicitly> about Rebecca and the birth of Jacob and Esau, is there any doubt> that Gen> 25:23 is being cited?> Al> > On Sep 16, 2010, at 1:54 PM, P R wrote:> > I was thinking more along the lines of Paul’s choice of words for> “younger,”> (elasswn). Because this wasn’t the normal word that would be used to> signify> “younger,” was this evidence that Paul was deliberately following> the LXX> here?> > Paul Rittman> > > > > —> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > > Albert Pietersma PhD> 21 Cross Street,> Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8> Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm> > Albert Pietersma PhD21 Cross Street,Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.caHomepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm— home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/– Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.3/696 – Release Date: 02/21/2007 3:19PM
[] Fwd: Gen 25.23 and the LXX, in Rom 9.12[] MH EPI TOUTOIS in Jer. 5:9, 29, 9:8 LXX