[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17 Rbsads at aol.com Rbsads at aol.com
Fri May 23 07:05:24 εδτ 2003
[] virus warning [] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17 Jn 15:17 ταυτα εντελλομαι hUMIN, hINA αγαπατε ALLNLOUSThe translations differ whether ταυτα refers to plural commands and hINA introduces a purpose clause or whether ταυτα refers to the single command that is introduced by hINA.In the νρσβ, ταυτα refers to plural commands, which ι suppose are understood to be the verses 13-16. The hINA clause introduces the reason for the preceding commands. These verses however do not seem to me to be commands.In the νιβ, ταυτα is rendered as a singular and refers to the hINA clause as its referent.Prompted by the earlier discussion of Bullinger, ι made reference to his chapter in Figures on heterosis of number, plural for singular, and found this:”This is so put when great excellence or magnitude is denoted. Our attention is thus called to the importance of thethng or matter concerning which the statement is made.”This ι am taking as an explanation of how the referent of ταυτα could be the singular hINA clause.Wallace explains in his grammar that hINA can be used as a direct object clause, rather that purpose, expecially after verbs of command, etc. In fact, John seems to follow this quite frequently thoughout the preceding passage.Please offer any comments on how this verse might be best understood.Thanks,Richard SmithChattanooga, τν
[] virus warning[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17
[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17 Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri May 23 07:55:06 εδτ 2003
[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17 [] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17 At 7:05 αμ -0400 5/23/03, Rbsads at aol.com wrote:>Jn 15:17 ταυτα εντελλομαι hUMIN, hINA αγαπατε αλλνλουσ> >The translations differ whether ταυτα refers to plural commands and hINA>introduces a purpose clause or whether ταυτα refers to the single command>that is>introduced by hINA.> >In the νρσβ, ταυτα refers to plural commands, which ι suppose are understood>to be the verses 13-16. The hINA clause introduces the reason for the>preceding commands. These verses however do not seem to me to be commands.> >In the νιβ, ταυτα is rendered as a singular and refers to the hINA clause as>its referent.> >Prompted by the earlier discussion of Bullinger, ι made reference to his>chapter in Figures on heterosis of number, plural for singular, and found>this:> >“This is so put when great excellence or magnitude is denoted. Our attention>is thus called to the importance of thethng or matter concerning which the>statement is made.”> >This ι am taking as an explanation of how the referent of ταυτα could be the>singular hINA clause.> >Wallace explains in his grammar that hINA can be used as a direct object>clause, rather that purpose, expecially after verbs of command, etc. In>fact, >John seems to follow this quite frequently thoughout the preceding passage.> >Please offer any comments on how this verse might be best understood.νετ has what ι would deem an unquestionably correct version:”This *44 ι command you-to love one another.”The note #44 does indicate that the Greek has “these” rather than “this.”My comments are simply: (1) For what it’s worth, ι really think that thedifferences in the English versions has to do with a (ιμηο) misguidednotion that “literal” translation should convey English equivalents of eachitem in the original; the differences may also involve a notion that hINA +subjunctive clauses should normally or invariably be carried over intoEnglish as purpose clauses. (2) ταυτα is commonly used in ancient Greek tohighlight something that is about to be said, as “What follows is mycommand to you: …” This is a matter of different usage in Greek andEnglish: Greek very commonly uses the neuter plural “these” here whereEnglish regularly uses the singular “this”; Moreover ι think it’s justplain silly to suppose that the ταυτα refers to the whole of verses 13-16.(3) Wallace is absolutely right about the hINA clause; ι think that KoineGreek is taught commonly in such a way as to give the impression that hINA+ subjunctive clauses are primarily purpose clauses; while that may havebeen the case in earlier Greek, the fact is that in Hellenistic Greek hINA+ subjunctive is well-launched on its way to becoming the Modern Greekinfinitive: it μαυ indicate purpose, but it is as likely to indicate resultor to be, as here, a noun clause: “θισ is my command, θατ you love eachother.”– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17
[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17 Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Fri May 23 14:05:01 εδτ 2003
[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17 [] word meaning This is an interesting question. ι had not thought of the possibility thathINA here could refer to anything else than the content of the command thatfollows, but when ι looked at this construction in the context of the Greeklanguage used in the ντ and especially in John, ι am not nearly as sure asCarl is what is the better analysis. Comments below:> At 7:05 αμ -0400 5/23/03, Rbsads at aol.com wrote:> >Jn 15:17 ταυτα εντελλομαι hUMIN, hINA αγαπατε αλλνλουσ> Carl said: My comments are simply: (1) For what it’s worth, ι really thinkthat the> differences in the English versions has to do with a (ιμηο) misguided> notion that “literal” translation should convey English> equivalents of each item in the original; the differences may also involvea notion> that hINA + subjunctive clauses should normally or invariably be carriedover into> English as purpose clauses.Whereas ι completely agree that hINA, especially in John, is a consecutiveconnector which can mean either purpose or result or consequence or justcontent, there are other reasons for suggesting that the case here needscareful looking into.(2) ταυτα is commonly used in ancient Greek to> highlight something that is about to be said, as “What follows is my> command to you: …”ι am not aware of how common this is in ancient Greek, but it occurs nowhereelse in the ντ.The common expression when a hOUTOS construction is kataphoric is the kindwe find in15:12 hAUTH εστιν hH εντολη hH εμη, hINA αγαπατε αλληλουσ.This kind of language is especially common in John. The fronted hOUTOShighlights the content that follows.Quite often John uses εν TOUTWi in such a kataphoric way (e.g. John 15:8 andin 1 John)α singular τουτο may – rarely – be used in a similar way as in Phil 1:9:και τουτο προσευξομαι hINA…ι have not been able to find a single case of ταυτα (or any pluralsubstantive form of hOUTOS) being used in such a kataphoric sense.Maybe the closest parallel to John 15:17 is in 1 Tim 5:7:και ταυτα παραγγελλε hINA… ι am charging you these things so that…Coming back to John 15:17, it is interesting that we have the same verb(εντελλομαι) with the same direct (hA – ταυτα) and indirect object (hUMIN)just above in v. 14:hUMEIS φιλοι μου εστε εαν ποιητε hA εγω εντελλομαι hUMINWhat are the things Jesus is in the process of commanding his disciples?Several have been mentioned in 15:1-16: Abide in me (v. 4), abide in my love(v. 9), love one another (v. 12).Because we have “the things ι am commanding you” in v.14 and “ι amcommanding you these things” in v. 17, and because 15-16 is somewhat of aparenthesis, ι would say there are good grammatical reasons to take ταυτα asanaphoric as is normal in the ντ rather than the unique and nowhere elseattested plural kataphoric. In this context it makes sense to say that Jesusis commanding them these things – abiding in him and in his love from v. 4and 9 – for the purpose that the disciples may show mutual love. The moreimmediate result of the abiding is that they bear fruit, but it seems to methat Jesus is highlighting mutual love as the most important aspect of thatfruit.This purpose is at the same time given as a command in v. 12. So, the endresult may not be that different. However, v. 17 is the closing verse of15:1-17, so it seems fitting for Jesus to say that the whole purpose ofthese various commands is that they love one another, because ιφ they do,the world will understand and be more ready to accept the gospel message(13:35).So, we have two analyses: Either Jesus is repeating the command to love oneanother or he is clarifying the overall purpose and intended result of histeachings and commands to the disciples: that they love one another.ι would say that both are possible, and none are silly.Iver Larsen
[] ταυτα and hINA in Jn 15:17[] word meaning