Titus 1:10 Kevin Smith kgs at iafrica.com
Mon Apr 10 16:17:40 εδτ 2000
Previous message: Pasting in Greek text from software Next message: Book Evaluation Requested GreetingsI have two questions. The second conerns the Tit 1:10 which reads: εισιν γαρ πολλοι [και] ανυποτακτοι, ματαιολογοι και φρεναπαται.Firstly, what is τλγ?Secondly, Metzger (τξγντ 584) says, “It is difficult to decide whether και was added in accordance with the rhetorical usage known as hendiadys….” My understanding of hendiadys comes from Roy Zuck who defines it as “two co-ordinate terms representing a single concept in which one of the elements defines the other.” ι can see how ανυποτακτοι [και] ματαιλογοι could be a hendiadys, but ι don’t understand how Metzger construes [και] ανυποτακτοι, ματαιολογοι as such. Could someone please explain Metzger’s explanation to this little Greek.Thanks a millionKevin SmithSouth Africakgs at iafrica.com————– next part ————–An ητμλ attachment was scrubbed…υρλ: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//attachments/20000410/dbfbf033/attachment.html
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Titus 1:10 Harold ρ. Holmyard ιιι hholmyard at ont.com
Tue Apr 11 18:28:35 εδτ 2000
Previous message: Greek diagraming Next message: Greek diagraming Dear Kevin, τλγ is a ξδ tool for searching ancient Greek Literature. ι am onlyguessing, but perhaps Metzger meant that πολλοι [και] ανυποτακτοι was thepossible hendiadys in Titus 1:10.Yours,Harold Holmyard
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[] Titus 1:10-13 rhutchin at aol.com rhutchin at aol.com
Tue Mar 3 08:46:35 εστ 2009
[] resend: Matt 13:17 [] Titus 1:10-13 In Titus 1:10-13, we read:10 εισιν γαρ πολλοι ανυποτακτοι ματαιολογοι και φρεναπαται μαλιοτα hOI εκ θσ PERITOMHS11 hOUS δει επιστομιζειν, hOITIVES hOLOUS οικουσ ανατρεπουσιν διδασκοντεσ hA μη δει αισξρου κερδουσ ξαριν.12 ειπεν τισ εχ αυτων ιδιοσ αυτων προφηθσ…13 hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ δι hHN αιτιαν ελεγξε αυτοισ αποτομωσ…ι have read the commentaries and have some questions.1. In v 12, do we take αυτων (in both instances) to refer back to the πολλοι ανυποτακτοι and μαλιοτα hOI εκ θσ περιτομησ. If not, what is the antecendent?2. Can we read v 12 to be an example of these ματαιολογοι are saying?3. In v 13, must hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ refer only to v 12 or can it refer to all that Paul says in v 10-13?4. To whom does Paul refer when he says, ελεγξε αυτοισ αποτομωσ? Does αυτοισ take us back to the πολλοι ανυποτακτοι of v 10 as opposed to the Cretians of v 12 (which seems to be what the commentaries say)? If Titus was to reprove the Cretians (following the commentaries), don’t we have Paul agreeing with the πολλοι ανυποτακτοι when he seems to be speaking against them.Roger Hutchinson
[] resend: Matt 13:17[] Titus 1:10-13
[] Titus 1:10-13 Elizabeth Kline kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Tue Mar 3 15:10:58 εστ 2009
[] Titus 1:10-13 [] 1 Peter 3:21 On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:46 αμ, rhutchin at aol.com wrote:> In Titus 1:10-13, we read:> > 10 εισιν γαρ πολλοι ανυποτακτοι ματαιολογοι και φρεναπαται μαλιοτα > hOI εκ θσ περιτομησ> > 11 hOUS δει επιστομιζειν, hOITIVES hOLOUS οικουσ ανατρεπουσιν > διδασκοντεσ hA μη δει αισξρου κερδουσ ξαριν.> > 12 ειπεν τισ εχ αυτων ιδιοσ αυτων προφηθσ…> > 13 hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ δι hHN αιτιαν ελεγξε αυτοισ > αποτομωσ…> > ι have read the commentaries and have some questions.> > 1. In v 12, do we take αυτων (in both instances) to refer back to > the πολλοι ανυποτακτοι and μαλιοτα hOI εκ θσ περιτομησ. If not, > what is the antecendent?> > 2. Can we read v 12 to be an example of these ματαιολογοι are saying?> > 3. In v 13, must hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ refer only to v 12 > or can it refer to all that Paul says in v 10-13?> > 4. To whom does Paul refer when he says, ελεγξε αυτοισ αποτομωσ? > Does αυτοισ take us back to the πολλοι ανυποτακτοι of v 10 as > opposed to the Cretians of v 12 (which seems to be what the > commentaries say)? If Titus was to reprove the Cretians (following > the commentaries), don’t we have Paul agreeing with the πολλοι > ανυποτακτοι when he seems to be speaking against them.> > Roger HutchinsonTitus 1:10 Εἰσὶν γὰρ πολλοὶ [καὶ] ἀνυπότακτοι, ματαιολόγοι καὶ φρεναπάται, μάλιστα οἱ ἐκ τῆς περιτομῆς, 11 οὓς δεῖ ἐπιστομίζειν, οἵτινες ὅλους οἴκους ἀνατρέπουσιν διδάσκοντες ἃ μὴ δεῖ αἰσχροῦ κέρδους χάριν. 12 εἶπέν τις ἐξ αὐτῶν ἴδιος αὐτῶν προφήτης· Κρῆτες ἀεὶ ψεῦσται, κακὰ θηρία, γαστέρες ἀργαί. 13 ἡ μαρτυρία αὕτη ἐστὶν ἀληθής. δι᾿ ἣν αἰτίαν ἔλεγχε αὐτοὺς ἀποτόμως, ἵνα ὑγιαίνωσιν ἐν τῇ πίστει, 14 μὴ προσέχοντες Ἰουδαϊκοῖς μύθοις καὶ ἐντολαῖς ἀνθρώπων ἀποστρεφομένων τὴν ἀλήθειαν.τιτυσ 1:10 εισιν γαρ πολλοι [και] ανυποτακτοι, ματαιολογοι και φρεναπαται, μαλιστα hOI εκ θσ περιτομησ, 11 hOUS δει επιστομιζειν, hOITINES hOLOUS οικουσ ανατρεπουσιν διδασκοντεσ hA μη δει αισξρου κερδουσ ξαριν. 12 ειπεν τισ εχ αυτων ιδιοσ αυτων προφηθσ: κῥτεσ αει υευσται, κακα θηρια, γαστερεσ αργαι. 13 hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ. δι hHN αιτιαν ελεγξε αυτουσ αποτομωσ, hINA hUGIAINWSIN εν THi πιστει, 14 μη προσεξοντεσ ιουδαικοισ μυθοισ και εντολαισ ανθρωπων αποστρεφομενων θν αληθειαν.There is some referential ambiguity (confusion?) here. ι would suggest (tentatively) that the rebuke in v13 address both πολλοι ανυποτακτοι and those influenced by their behavior and/or teaching, with the primary focus on on the ‘hard core’ perpetrators. hOUS in hOUS δει επιστομιζειν in v. 11a along with hOITINES in hOITINES hOLOUS οικουσ ανατρεπουσιν are coreferential with αυτουσ in v. 13b.The next step in my analysis is a “long shot” (dubious). In regard to hUGIAINWSIN v.13b, ι would suggest (very tentative) that the personal reference is not exactly identical with the immediately preceding αυτουσ. In other words, the rebuke is primarily directed at the hard core group of trouble makers who are perhaps beyond rescue. Paul’s concern is for the correction and rescue of the whole group including both some of the marginal perpetrators and some who are influenced by them, while the hard core perpetrators are not expected to change their ways. The primary target of the rebuke are not the ones who will benefit most from the rebuke. Those who hear the hard core perpetrators being rebuked will benefit.Elizabeth Kline
[] Titus 1:10-13[] 1 Peter 3:21
Wed Mar 4 14:15:16 εστ 2009
[] Mounce/ββγ: Another correction? [] Titus 1:10-13 ι wonder if ελεγξε in v 13 may be taken in the positive sense (perhaps in the sense of warn)and refer back to v 5 and those who are to be ordained as πρεσβυτερουσ.Following the instructions for appointing the πρεσβυτερουσ, Paul begins v 10 with, εισιν γαρ πολλοι ανυποτακτοι…, from which he then concludes, δι hHN αιτιαν…, in v 13.Could we take αυτουσ in β 13 to refer back to the PRESBUTEROUSto be appointed per v 5-9? Does the greek text point, in any way, to what Paul has in view without resorting to exegesis.Roger Hutchinson ——————————Message: 4Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 12:10:58 -0800From: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:10-13To: greek < at lists.ibiblio.org>Message-ιδ: <A51764C3-058C-48AA-91E1-133A7948CB3D at earthlink.net>On Mar 3, 2009, at 5:46 αμ, rhutchin at aol.com wrote:> In Titus 1:10-13, we read:> > 10 εισιν γαρ πολλοι ανυποτακτοι ματαιολογοι και φρεναπαται μαλιοτα > hOI εκ θσ περιτομησ> > 11 hOUS δει επιστομιζειν, hOITIVES hOLOUS οικουσ ανατρεπουσιν > διδασκοντεσ hA μη δει αισξρου κερδουσ ξαριν.> > 12 ειπεν τισ εχ αυτων ιδιοσ αυτων προφηθσ…> > 13 hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ δι hHN αιτιαν ελεγξε αυτοισ > αποτομωσ…> > ι have read the commentaries and have some questions.> > 1. In v 12, do we take αυτων (in both instances) to refer back to > the πολλοι ανυποτακτοι and μαλιοτα hOI εκ θσ περιτομησ. If not, > what is the antecendent?> > 2. Can we read v 12 to be an example of these ματαιολογοι are saying?> > 3. In v 13, must hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ refer only to v 12 > or can it refer to all that Paul says in v 10-13?> > 4. To whom does Paul refer when he says, ελεγξε αυτοισ αποτομωσ? > Does αυτοισ take us back to the πολλοι ανυποτακτοι of v 10 as > opposed to the Cretians of v 12 (which seems to be what the > commentaries say)? If Titus was to reprove the Cretians (following > the commentaries), don?t we have Paul agreeing with the πολλοι > ανυποτακτοι when he seems to be speaking against them.> > Roger Hutchinson[Deleted because it comes through as garbage in the message ι receive.]τιτυσ 1:10 εισιν γαρ πολλοι [και] ανυποτακτοι, ματαιολογοι και φρεναπαται, μαλιστα hOI εκ θσ περιτομησ, 11 hOUS δει επιστομιζειν, hOITINES hOLOUS οικουσ ανατρεπουσιν διδασκοντεσ hA μη δει αισξρου κερδουσ ξαριν. 12 ειπεν τισ εχ αυτων ιδιοσ αυτων προφηθσ: κῥτεσ αει υευσται, κακα θηρια, γαστερεσ αργαι. 13 hH μαρτυρια hAUTH εστιν αληθησ. δι hHN αιτιαν ελεγξε αυτουσ αποτομωσ, hINA hUGIAINWSIN εν THi πιστει, 14 μη προσεξοντεσ ιουδαικοισ μυθοισ και εντολαισ ανθρωπων αποστρεφομενων θν αληθειαν.There is some referential ambiguity (confusion?) here. ι would suggest (tentatively) that the rebuke in v13 address both πολλοι ανυποτακτοι and those influenced by their behavior and/or teaching, with the primary focus on on the ‘hard core’ perpetrators. hOUS in hOUS δει επιστομιζειν in v. 11a along with hOITINES in hOITINES hOLOUS οικουσ ανατρεπουσιν are coreferential with αυτουσ in v. 13b.The next step in my analysis is a “long shot” (dubious). In regard to hUGIAINWSIN v.13b, ι would suggest (very tentative) that the personal reference is not exactly identical with the immediately preceding αυτουσ. In other words, the rebuke is primarily directed at the hard core group of trouble makers who are perhaps beyond rescue. Paul’s concern is for the correction and rescue of the whole group including both some of the marginal perpetrators and some who are influenced by them, while the hard core perpetrators are not expected to change their ways. The primary target of the rebuke are not the ones who will benefit most from the rebuke. Those who hear the hard core perpetrators being rebuked will benefit.Elizabeth Kline α Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[] Mounce/ββγ: Another correction?[] Titus 1:10-13
[] Titus 1:10-13 Harold Holmyard hholmyard3 at earthlink.net
Wed Mar 4 16:34:48 εστ 2009
[] Titus 1:10-13 [] Death by categories Roger,> ι wonder if ελεγξε in v 13 may be taken in the positive sense (perhaps > > in the sense of warn)and refer back to v 5 and those who are to be > > ordained as πρεσβυτερουσ.> ηη: ελεγξε is not a positive word here. it is due to the fact that Cretans are liars, evil beasts, and lazy bellies. Therefore Titus is to reprove them severely. The word αυτουσ in verse 13 clearly refers back to αυτων in verse 12, whose reference is to the Cretans. The pronoun precedes its referent.> Following the instructions for appointing the πρεσβυτερουσ, Paul > > begins v 10 with, εισιν γαρ πολλοι ανυποτακτοι…, from which he > > then concludes, δι hHN αιτιαν…, in v 13.> ηη: δι hHN αιτιαν in verse 13 refers back to the quotation in verse 12, and the fact that the Cretans are this way.> Could we take αυτουσ in β 13 to refer back to the πρεσβυτερουσ> > to be appointed per v 5-9? Does the greek text point, in any way, > > to what Paul has in view without resorting to exegesis.> ηη: Of course, αυτουσ would include any elders that Titus would appoint, but he was to reprove the whole church.Yours,Harold Holmyard
[] Titus 1:10-13[] Death by categories
Mon Mar 9 20:04:13 εδτ 2009
[] commas and periods in the original text [] Titus 1:10-16 ι have placed additional comments after ηη comments.? αολ seems to be double-spacing my messages as well as inserting question marks everywhere.? If someone knows why, please talk to me about it.? Another thing.? The lines wrap in this paragraph but below, when ι comment after ηη, line wrapping does not occur.? ι just upgraded to OS10.4.11 and maybe that has something to do with it.Roger HutchinsonDate: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:34:48 -0600From: Harold Holmyard <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>Subject: Re: [] Titus 1:10-13To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Message-ιδ: <49AEF3F8.2050007 at earthlink.net>Roger,> ι wonder if ελεγξε in v 13 may be taken in the positive sense (perhaps > in the sense of warn)and refer back to v 5 and those who are to be > ordained as πρεσβυτερουσ. ηη: ελεγξε is not a positive word here. it is due to the fact that Cretans are liars, evil beasts, and lazy bellies. Therefore Titus is to reprove them severely. The word αυτουσ in verse 13 clearly refers back to αυτων in verse 12, whose reference is to the Cretans. The pronoun precedes its referent.ῥ: ι agree that αυτουσ in verse 13 clearly refers back to αυτων inverse 12 but this seems to refer back to v10 and the ανυποτακτοι (whoare probably Cretans) but the focus seems to be on those whom Paulhas directed our attention in v10. Paul seems to be telling Titus torebuke the ανυποτακτοι. If Paul now means to direct the reader’s attention to the Cretans, he has lost me in the argument he has crafted.> Following the instructions for appointing the πρεσβυτερουσ, Paul > begins v 10 with, εισιν γαρ πολλοι ανυποτακτοι…, from which he > then concludes, δι hHN αιτιαν…, in v 13. ηη: δι hHN αιτιαν in verse 13 refers back to the quotation in verse 12, and the fact that the Cretans are this way.ῥ: δι hHN αιτιαν refers immediately back to hH μαρτυρια and then to something. If δι hHN αιτιαν refers back to the description of the Cretans,Why should we care? How does that fit into the argument that Paul beginsin v10? Is it possible that hH μαρτυρια refers back to that which Paulhas said in v10-12 with v12 being and example of that which he describes in v10-11?> Could we take αυτουσ in β 13 to refer back to the πρεσβυτερουσ> to be appointed per v 5-9? Does the greek text point, in any way, > to what Paul has in view without resorting to exegesis. ηη: Of course, αυτουσ would include any elders that Titus would appoint, but he was to reprove the whole church.ῥ: Because of a seeming (to me) slander by one of the ανυποτακτοι who aresubverting whole houses for financial gain? Are we to believe that thereis not even one Cretan who is not a liar, evil beast, and lazy belly. That description seems to be somewhat extreme but consistent with thatwhich the ανυποτακτοι might be saying and not necessarily true.
[] commas and periods in the original text[] Titus 1:10-16
[] Titus 1:10-16 rhutchin at aol.com rhutchin at aol.com
Mon Mar 9 20:10:17 εδτ 2009
[] Titus 1:10-13 [] Titus 1:10-16 Do we read Titus 1:10-16 as a continuous whole so that we understand Paul to say, “10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:…They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”Or does Paul end one chain of thought at the end of v14 and begin a new thought with v 15?Roger Hutchinson
[] Titus 1:10-13[] Titus 1:10-16
[] Titus 1:10-16 Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Mar 9 20:32:54 εδτ 2009
[] Titus 1:10-16 [] Mark1:11 On Mar 9, 2009, at 8:10 πμ, rhutchin at aol.com wrote:> Do we read Titus 1:10-16 as a continuous whole so that we understand > Paul to say, “10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and > deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:…They profess that > they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and > disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”> > Or does Paul end one chain of thought at the end of v14 and begin a > new thought with v 15?> > Roger HutchinsonIs this a question about the Greek text?Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Ret)
[] Titus 1:10-16[] Mark1:11