1 Corinthians 15:52

[] 1 Cor 15:52 David Weiner cdweiner at comcast.net
Mon Feb 4 19:24:36 EST 2008

 

[] HGGIKEN + EPI [] 1 Cor 15:52 At the beginning of this verse there are three phrases which each begin with EN. The first two seem to be taken as figurative pictures of the brief time required for the transformation mentioned later in the verse. The third EN phrase is taken as a time marker and not another picture of brevity. Also, there is the seeming play on words with SALPIGGI SALPISEI to point to a figurative use of SALPIGGI rather than it referencing a specific trumpet in God’s plan. Is there is a theologically neutral reason for not considering all three phrases taken together as making the same point in a very emphatic manner?David Weiner

 

[] HGGIKEN + EPI[] 1 Cor 15:52

[] 1 Cor 15:52 Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Tue Feb 5 02:10:31 EST 2008

 

[] 1 Cor 15:52 [] reading for translation or understanding? —– Original Message —– From: “David Weiner” <cdweiner at comcast.net>To: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Sent: 5. februar 2008 03:24Subject: [] 1 Cor 15:52> At the beginning of this verse there are three phrases which each begin> with EN. The first two seem to be taken as figurative pictures of the> brief time required for the transformation mentioned later in the> verse. The third EN phrase is taken as a time marker and not another> picture of brevity. Also, there is the seeming play on words with> SALPIGGI SALPISEI to point to a figurative use of SALPIGGI rather than> it referencing a specific trumpet in God’s plan. Is there is a> theologically neutral reason for not considering all three phrases taken> together as making the same point in a very emphatic manner?> > David WeinerYes, the context should be adequate not to do so.PANTES DE ALLAGHSOMEQA, EN ATOMWi, EN RIPHi OFQALMOUEN THi ESCATHi SALPIGGI.SALPISEI GAR KAI hOI NEKROI EGERQHSONTAI AFQARTOIKAI hHMEIS ALLAGHSOMEQAThe first two obviously express the speed of the change, but the third must refer to when this change is going to happen. The blowing of a trumpet takes longer than the wink of an eye, and this particular trumpet blast is said to be the last one. Therefore, the point is not the length of the blast but when it occurs. This is further clarified by the next sentence introduced by GAR. When that trumpet blows the dead shall rise and we shall be changed. There is no play on words, and the repetition of a cognate word in a new sentence does not point to figurative use.Iver Larsen

 

[] 1 Cor 15:52[] reading for translation or understanding?

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28 thoughts on “1 Corinthians 15:52

  1. Troy Day Troy Day says:

    hey Link Hudson after dismantling your 2Thes anti-pre-trib argument (and quite successfully if I may add) to the point where even Ricky Grimsley could not help you with his favorite 2Thes 2:2 since yall could not agree on who the Restrainer is, I took the time to dissect another passage you like to throw around namely 1 Cor 15 Now, I’ve done some extensive work on 1 Cor in the past and 1 Cor 15 was actually among my favorite passages to preach from so I must warn you there is much more coming here on this one, but just for starters HOW do you feel this particular verse helps your anti-pre-trib quest because frankly I just dont see what you are saying in the actual Biblical text as written by the apostle Paul http://probible.net/2-thessalonians-22/

  2. 1 Corinthians 15:50-57 What about those who are living at Christ’s coming? Since it is impossible for a flesh and blood body to inherit the kingdom of God, Paul discloses a mystery—something that had not been revealed in the OT but now is revealed. Believers who are there when Christ returns shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This will take place at the last trumpet, which will blast for the Church. Some believe that this trumpet is the same as the seventh trumpet of judgment (Rev 11:15-19). However, the trumpets in Revelation relate to God’s judgment during the Tribulation, and this trumpet is blown for the Church. When it sounds, Paul says, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. His use of we indicates that he believed in the imminent return of the Lord. A transformation will take place where this corruptible must put on incorruption. The living Christians will receive a body that is no longer subject to death and disease. Furthermore, the mortal body will put on an immortal body. Paul then quotes from Isa 25:8 and Hos 13:14, “Death is swallowed up in victory” and “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” Mankind’s rebellion caused the sting of death (Rom 5:12-13,21). The word sting is taken from a word that refers to the stings of bees, serpents, etc. Death inflicts an evil sting that exists because of mankind’s rebellion against God. Also Paul notes that the strength of sin is the law. In other words the Law condemns everyone by its strict conditions (cf. Rom 7:4-20). Because of what Christ accomplished on the cross and the resurrection, believers can say with Paul, But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Death, sin, and law have been destroyed through the cross and the victorious resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

  3. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 Paul now moves to a personal appeal (we ask [exhort] you) concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.

    The Thessalonian church had a major eschatological misconception. They were being shaken in mind or troubled. False teachers had been saying that the day of Christ had come. The reading, “the day of the Lord,” in the Critical Text refers to the Tribulation. However, the Majority Text reading, “the day of Christ,” which is preferred, always refers to the Judgment Seat of Christ (B¢ma) (cf. Phil 2:16). Similar expressions in Paul are “the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6,10) and “the day of the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:8).

    If the day of Christ had already occurred, the believers in Thessalonica had missed the Rapture and the B¢ma. Thus they would think that they were in the Tribulation and that terrible days were just around the corner.

    It is reasonable for unbelievers to fear the Tribulation. But it is not reasonable for believers, especially those who have been taught by the Apostle Paul.

    2:3-5. Paul reminds them of things he told them before (v 5). He told them that two things would occur before the Day of Christ: the falling away, and the Man of Sin is revealed…who exalts himself…as God in the temple.

    If Paul is indeed speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ here, then he is saying that it will not occur until after the midpoint of the Tribulation, for that is when the abomination of desolation alluded to in v 4 will occur.

  4. Troy Day Troy Day says:

    RichardAnna Boyce this OP is specifically on 1 Cor 15:52 and the 3 phrases which each begin with EN. The first two seem to be taken as figurative pictures of the brief time required for the transformation mentioned later in the verse. The third EN phrase is taken as a time marker and not another picture of brevity. AND how they relate on the specific theoretix Link Hudson has used the verse for to defend post-Trib-rapture or whatever his theory is Not just a general talk on 1 Cor 15

  5. Link Hudson Link Hudson says:

    Troy Day i am at the dr.s office with no internet to read the articles. I am just trying to figure out what the topic here has to do with the timing of the rapture. We can all agree that at the rapture those who
    are alive’s bodies change in a moment in the twinkling of an eye right? This happens just before the resurrection.

    Now I have had a look at the OP. Do you honestly rhink this contributes to a discussion of the timing of the rapture.

    I Cor. 15:23 would be a relevant verse to discuss. This puts the resurrection at the coming of Christ. Troy linked to a long post. Somewhere in there a poster proposed that the coming of Christ coukd refer to a long period of time. Sounds almost how amils interpret scripture. And it is totally unnecessary.

    Matthew 24 puts the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the tribulation. The gathering of the elect occurs after tribulation is also afyer the tribulation in Matthew 24.

    Revelation mentions the first resurrection occuring after the scene of Jesus woth the armies of heaven at the end of the book. In I Thessalonians the rapture is right AFTER the resurrection.

    No rapture is mentioned earlier in Revelation. John is told to ‘Come up hither’. The fact that some pretribbers try to interpret that allegorically to support pretrib rapture shows tge weakness of the theory. So far tge only attempt I gave seen to show a direct argument for pretrib rapture is reinterpreting the apostasia to be the rapture but that does not fit well with the aegument in the context. Pretribbers typically just assume pretrib and try to make passages fot their theory.

    You posted a

  6. Troy Day Troy Day says:

    Link Hudson praying for you and yours that everything goes well Nevertheless after looking more into 1 Cor 15 which speaks of the final resurrection at the parousia, I still dont see how you see it as post-trib proof. Just my c2 Ricky Grimsley Rico Hero

    1. Link Hudson Link Hudson says:

      Troy, pre-tribbers believe the parousia is at the end of the tribulation, right?

      In I Corinthians 15, the resurrection of those who are Christ’s occurs AT HIS COMING.
      That’s at the end of the tribulation, right?
      The rapture happens right after the resurrection of the saints, right?
      So the rapture happens after the tribulation.

      As a pre-tribber, I was taught the passage about the Word of God on a white horse toward the end of the book there was about the second coming. The ‘first resurrection’ in Revelation happens after this– after the second coming. Don’t you agree?

      If the first resurrection happens after the second coming in Revelation, how could the resurrection of the dead in Christ occur before the tribulation?

    2. Matt:27-28. The Great Tribulation will conclude with “the coming of the Son of Man.”
      24:29-30. “Immediately after the Tribulation” the earth will experience severe cosmic disturbances when Jesus comes to judge cleanse the earth (Luke 21:25-26).
      “All the tribes of the earth will mourn” in response to His visible power and glory. All Israel turns to Christ in the end times and is saved (Rev 19:16)
      “The sign of the Son of Man” when He comes “on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” A sign of the light of all heavenly bodies thus dimmed (Joel 2:31; 3:15), will increase the impact of the manifestation of the glory of Christ. “The powers of the heavens” that might compete with His display of power “will be shaken” (Rev 6:12-13). Thick, heavy darkness will bring extraordinary gloom to the inhabitants of the earth. In the now deeper blackness of space the Shekinah glory, which emanates from Christ, will appear at last (cf. Matt 2:2,9). This sign will be viewed with alarm as it swiftly approaches earth.
      The dreadful harvest will have begun (cf. 13:47-50; Rev 14:14-20).

    3. Matt:24:31. Jesus will dispatch “angels to gather the elect,” God’s chosen people Israel. Israel is scattered to the remotest parts of the earth because of her disobedience but then she will be placed in her land. Her tribulation will be over rescued (24:13)
      The last trumpet of the Church Age mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 is not the same as the trumpet described here. This trumpet is blown at the end of the Tribulation to announce the gathering of Messiah’s people at His coming.

    4. Link Hudson dont knowm but as i read it Matthew 24:31 The harvest of the saved will begin with an exercise of royal authority. Jesus will dispatch “angels to gather the elect,” God’s chosen people, Israel (cf. Isa 27:12-13; 65:9). Israel is now scattered to “the four winds” (i.e., the remotest parts of the earth in all directions) because of her disobedience (Deut 28:64-67; Ezek 37:21-22; Luke 21:24), but then she will be placed in her land (Isa 11:11-16; Jer 16:14-15; Ezek 37:21-22,25; 39:27-28). As a trumpet was used in ancient Israel to call Israel to assemble (Num 10:1-10), so a trumpet will announce the gathering of Messiah’s people at His coming. It no doubt will celebrate a great military triumph and deliverance as well (cf. Zech 9:14-16). At this point Israel’s time of tribulation will be over because the nation will have been rescued (Matt 24:13). The use of the trumpet may indicate that Jesus’ coming will be heard as well as seen.

      Since the Church will have already been caught up in the Rapture and gathered to Christ prior to the Tribulation (1 Thess 4:13-18; 5:9), this gathering does not apply to them. The last trumpet of the Church Age mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 is not the same as the trumpet described here. This trumpet is blown at the end of the Tribulation.

      In most of the following series of illustrations and parables, Jesus draws contrasts between those who are faithful, prepared, and watchful and those who are not. The outcome is reward or retribution. Expecting or not expecting Christ’s return makes a large difference in the lives of those illustrated. Just as unbelievers can suffer loss by not being prepared (Matt 24:39-41; 25:41,46), it is possible for believers to suffer loss, too, although not the kind suffered by unbelievers (24:43,51; 25:12,30). This loss is assumed by the admonitions directed toward believers to watch and be ready (24:42,44; 25:13). Since believers who are prompted to faithfulness by watching are rewarded, the implication is that believers who fail to watch and thus act like unbelievers will suffer loss of rewards.

    5. Link Hudson Link Hudson says:

      RichardAnna Boyce Paul writes of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto him to a church in II Thessalonians 2:1. I don’t mind an Israel-focused interpretation of the gathering of the elect in that verse in Matthew 24. But the elect believe in Jesus, and Gentile saints, who are made fellow heirs, will not be exempted from our gathering unto Jesus.

    6. Link Hudson again, as i see it ….2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

      The Thessalonian church had a major eschatological misconception. They were being shaken in mind or troubled. False teachers had been saying that the day of Christ had come. The reading, “the day of the Lord,” in the Critical Text refers to the Tribulation. However, the Majority Text reading, “the day of Christ,” which is preferred, always refers to the Judgment Seat of Christ (
      B¢ma
      ) (cf. Phil 2:16). Similar expressions in Paul are “the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6,10) and “the day of the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:8).
      If the day of Christ had already occurred, the believers in Thessalonica had missed the Rapture and the B¢ma
      . Thus they would think that they were in the Tribulation and that terrible days were just around the corner.
      It is reasonable for unbelievers to fear the Tribulation. But it is not reasonable for believers, especially those who have been taught by the Apostle Paul.
      2:3-5. Paul reminds them of things he told them before (v 5). He told them that two things would occur before the Day of Christ: the falling away, and the Man of Sin is revealed…who exalts himself…as God in the temple.
      If Paul is indeed speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ here, then he is saying that it will not occur until after the midpoint of the Tribulation, for that is when the abomination of desolation alluded to in v 4 will occur.
      The expression the falling away or the apostasy (h¢ apostasia) need not mean that once apostasy occurs in the Church Age, the day of Christ is here. Admittedly the falling away is a vague expression. Since it is the apostasy, it might refer specifically to the abomination of desolation. If so, then the many false teachings of this age merely foreshadow the ultimate apostasy to come.
      When Paul wrote, the temple still stood. However, in AD 70, the temple was destroyed and has not yet been rebuilt. The temple must be rebuilt either before the Tribulation starts, or during the first days of the Tribulation. The Man of Sin will not exalt himself as God in the temple until it is restored in Jerusalem.
      The Man of Sin, like Judas, is called the son of perdition. He will be the political ruler, whom John calls “the beast,” whose work is supported by a religious leader known as “the false prophet” (who is the Antichrist).

    1. Link Hudson Link Hudson says:

      Troy Day not in my dr office with no internet it did not. Would you cate to explaim how this is relevant to our ongoing discussion of the timing of the parousia-resurrection-rapture event in scripture or quote a portion you see as relevant?

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