1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI … Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jul 12 12:37:57 EDT 2002
Ephesians 4:12 Perseus encountering problems The problem here is an old one and I can still remember vividly the timewhen I first puzzled over it, observing to myself, “the translations ofthis phrase all seem to point to one or another clear understanding ofit–but how do they reach that understanding?”I cite the text including 4:3 so that the syntax may be clear: (3) TOUTOGAR ESTIN QELHMA TOU QEOU, hO hAGIASMOS hUMWN, APECESQAI hUMAS APO THSPORNEIAS, EIDENAI hEKASTON hUMWN TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI EN hAGIASMWi KAITIMHi.My concern here is fundamentally limited to the possible understanding(s)of the phrase indicated in the above subject-header. There was a time whenthe Greek was translated so literally, as in the King James Version, thatalthough the phrase clearly enough referred to sexual behavior, the readerwas more or less free to guess what the phrase really meant:KJV: … to possess his vessel …More recently it has come to be agreed that SKEUOS in this particularphrase must mean either “wife” or “body.” Thus NRSV offers one andfootnotes the other:NRSV: … to control your own body F13 …F13: Or [how to take a wife for himself]NET is even more cautious: while indicating an interpretative preference,it notes the alternatives:NET: … to possess his own body4 …4tn Grk “to gain [or possess] his own vessel.” “Vessel” is most likelyused figuratively for “body” (cf. 2 Cor 4:7). Some take it to mean”wife” (thus, “to take a wife for himself” or “to live with his wife”),but this is less likely. See J. Smith, “1 Thess 4:4-Breaking theImpasse,” BBR 10 (Fall 2000), who argues that “vessel” in this contextis very likely a euphemism for the sexual organs.My own search of our archives has brought to light only one significantthread on this matter, initiated by Jay Adkins on 3/29/2000 and continuingthrough 4/01/2000, with subject-header, “1Thes 4:4 Can SKEUOS be used as aeuphemism for male genitalia?” A “Yes” answer to that question was upheldby at least one list-member then and I know for certain that at least onelist-member upholds it now. I readily grant that SKEUOS can, in somecircumstances mean “penis” (just as I’ve heard “tool” used in colloquialEnglish for “penis.”), but I am personally convinced that SKEUOS here andalso in 1 Peter 3:7 must mean “woman as a sexual partner,” i.e. “wife.” Itcannot possibly, I think, mean either “penis” or “body.” My reason is thatI have not seen a scintilla of evidence that KTAOMAI can mean “control” or”gain mastery over” so that the combination TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAIshould be equivalent to EGKRATEUESQAI, which BDAG glosses as “to keep one’semotions, impulses or desires under control, control oneself …” While theperfect tense has the stative sense of “possess” in the sense “hold asproperty,” the primary sense in other tenses is “acquire as property”(including, by way of metaphorical extension, a bad reputation ortroubles/woes, so that the essential sense is “get” or “acquire.” Surgicalsex-change procedures of recent origin may make it possible for one bornfemale to “acquire one’s very own penis”–but I don’t think that is whatPaul was talking about in 1 Thess 4:4 and I think that the same difficultyresides in the notion of “acquiring one’s own body.” I can conceive in avague sort of sense KEKTHSQAI TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS as “be the owner of one ownbody as a piece of property”–but we’re still talking about POSSESSIONrather exercising functions of one’s body.One won’t find anything helpful on KTASQAI in LSJ. In Louw & Nida we find adiscussion of this phrase at #23.63:23.63 SKEUOS KTAOMAI i: (an idiom, literally ‘to possess a vessel’) aeuphemistic manner of referring to sexual relations – ‘sexual life.’ TOhEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI EN hAGIASMWi KAI TIMHi vØ ‘each one’s sexual lifeshould be holy and honorable’ 1Th 4:4. It is also possible to understandSKEUOS in 1Th 4:4 as one’s wife (see 10.55). SKEUOS in 1Th 4:4 may also beunderstood as one’s body, and therefore the phrase TO hEAUTOU SKEUOSKTASQAI may be rendered as ‘to control his own body’ (see 8.6).But no explanation is offered for how KTASQAI can bear that meaning. If welook at L&N #8.6, we read SKEUOS, OUS8.6 SKEUOS, OUS n: (a figurative extension of meaning of SKEUOS a ‘object,thing, instrument,’ 6.1, or of SKEUOS b ‘vessel,’ 6.118) the human body -‘body.’ hEKASTON hUMWN TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI ‘each one of you shouldlearn to gain mastery over his own body’ 1Th 4:4. It is also possible tointerpret SKEUOS in 1Th 4:4 as meaning ‘wife,’ and for a discussion of thismeaning and some of the problems involved in translation, see 10.55. Afurther alternative meaning, and one closely related to the meaning of’body’ is ‘sexual life,’ so that this expression in 1Th 4:4 might berendered as ‘each of you must gain mastery over his sexual life’ or, in theform TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI EN hAGIASMWi KAI TIMHi vØ, ‘your sexual lifeshould be holy and honorable’ (see 23.63).But here too there is no explanation of how KTASQAI can have the sense”gain mastery over.” Finally, there is #10.55:10.55 SKEUOS, OUS n: (a figurative extension of meaning of SKEUOS b’vessel,’ 6.118) a woman married to a man, with focus upon the sexualrelation – ‘wife.’ EIDENAI hEKASTON hUMWN TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI ENhAGIASMWi KAI TIMHi vØ ‘that each one of you know how to take a wife forhimself in holiness and honor’ 1Th 4:4. The interpretation of SKEUOS in 1Th4:4 has given rise to serious divisions of opinion as noted in 8.6, whereSKEUOS is interpreted as designating a person’s own body. Theinterpretation of SKEUOS as ‘wife’ is based upon a number ofconsiderations. In the first place, the verb KTASQAI ‘to get, to acquire'(57.58) does not normally go with ‘body,’ while it fits well with themeaning of ‘wife.’ On the other hand, SKEUOS meaning ‘wife’ is nowhere elseattested in Greek but is assumed in 1Th 4:4 to refer to a wife primarily onthe strength of the particular interpretation of the context, in whichPORNEIA ‘immorality’ (88.271) in verse 3 and EN PAQEI EPIQUMIAS ‘with alustful desire’ (25.30) in verse 5 are assumed to point to the meaning ofSKEUOS as ‘wife.’ In ancient Jewish literature a wife was euphemisticallycalled a ‘vessel’ in contexts relating to sexual relations, and ‘vessel’ isa very common meaning of SKEUOS in Greek. If, therefore, one assumes aSemitic background for this Greek text, the statement in 1Th 4:4 wouldrefer to the need for sexual life to be both holy and honorable (see 23.63).And this, I think, is the most reasonable accounting for the expression wehave in 1 Thess 4:4.What of BDAG? The relevant portion of the entry is (3), which I shall citein entirety:SKEUOS, OUS, TO (Aristoph., Thu. +) …(3) a human being exercising a function, instrument, vessel (fig. ext. of 1or 2 (Polyb. 13, 5, 7 DAMOKLHS hUPHRETIKON HN SKEUOS) for Christ Paul is aSKEUOS EKLOGHS, a chosen instrument (Ac 9:15.-Of the body, in which theSpirit dwells (cp. TestNapht 8:6 hO DIABOLOS OIKEIOUTAI AUTON hWS IDIONSKEUOS; ApMos 16 GENOU MOI SKEUOS; and the magical prayer in FPradel,Griech. u. südital. Gebete 1907, p.9,11f EXORKIZW SE EXELQEIN APO TOUSKEUOUS TOUTOU) Hm 5,1,2 Christ’s body as TO SKEUOS TOU PNEUMATOS thevessel of the Spirit B 7:3; 11:9; cp. TO KALON SKEUOS 21:8 (of the humanbody, as ApcSed 11:5 [p. 123, 17 Ja.] W CEIRES … DI’ hAS TO SKEUOSTREFETAI; cp 10 (In. 25 Ja.]; 11 [In. 27 Ja.]). Of the human body asOSTRAKINA SKEUH 2 Cor 4:7, s. OSTRAKINOS. Those who are lost are SKEUHORGHS Ro 9:22 (cp. Jer. 27:25.-CDodd, JTS 5, ’54, 247f. instruments ofjudgment; sim. AHanson, JTS 32, ’81, 433-43), those who are saved SKEUHELEOUS vs. 23.Here’s the meat of the account: – 1 Pt 3:7 woman is called ASQENESTERON SKEUOS (ASQENHS 2a). TOhEAUTOU SKEUOS 1 Th 4:4 from antiquity has been interpreted to mean one’sown body (Theodoret, Calvin, Milligan, Schlantz, MDibelius, RKnox transl.’44; CCD transl. ’41, mg.; NRSV) or one’s own wife (Theodore of Mopsuestia,Schmiedel, vDobschütz, Frame, Oepke, WVogel, ThBl 13, ’34, 83-85; RSV etal.) The former interpr. is supported by passages cited at the beg. of thissection 3, and the latter is in accord w. rabb. usage (Billerb. III 632f.S. also KTAOMAI 1). Also probable for 1 Th 4:4 is ‘penis’ (so Antistius (IAD) in Anthol. Plan. 4, 243; Aelian, NA 17, 11; cp. the euphemistic Lat.’vasa’ in this sense: Plautus, Poenulus. 863; s. MPoole, SynopsisCriticorum Ali. Sacrae Script., rev. ed. 1694, V col. 908; on sim. usage atQumran s. TElgvin, NTS 43, ’97, 604-19; NAB [1970] renders guarding hismember [difft. rev. ed. of NAB, 1986]. Cp. KDonfried, NTS 31, ‘895, 342).In such case KTASQAI must mean something like ‘gain control of’, etc. -DELG, M-M, EDNT, TW.This is a nice compilation of ways in which SKEUOS in 1 Thess 4:4 has beeninterpreted, but to me the telling observation is “In such case KTASQAImust mean something like ‘gain control of’, etc.” I simply do not believethat the case can be made for taking KTASQAI in that sense, even ifinterpreters of this text are insistent on making SKEUOS mean either”penis” or “body.” I really don’t think we can make the Greek mean whateverwe want it to mean.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Ephesians 4:12Perseus encountering problems
1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI … Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sat Jul 13 07:10:28 EDT 2002
Gal 4:4 (Some thoughts on a new NA) 1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI … Dear Carl,Thanks for the compilation of thoughts on this verse. It is not absoslutelyclear to me what your conclusion is. My understanding is – and was – that itrefers to “acquiring in a holy an honorable way a woman to be one’s wife”which is how the vast majority of Bible translators have understood it. Asfar as I can see you agree. What ways are honorable is a matter of culture,religious convictions and personal ethics.<snip>> NRSV: … to control your own body F13 …> F13: Or [how to take a wife for himself]<snip>> One won’t find anything helpful on KTASQAI in LSJ. In Louw & Nida> we find a discussion of this phrase…:<snip>> 10.55 SKEUOS, OUS n: (a figurative extension of meaning of SKEUOS b> ‘vessel,’ 6.118) a woman married to a man, with focus upon the sexual> relation – ‘wife.’ EIDENAI hEKASTON hUMWN TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI EN> hAGIASMWi KAI TIMHi vØ ‘that each one of you know how to take a wife for> himself in holiness and honor’ 1Th 4:4.<snip> In ancient Jewish literature a wife was euphemistically> called a ‘vessel’ in contexts relating to sexual relations, and> ‘vessel’ is a very common meaning of SKEUOS in Greek. If, therefore, oneassumes a> Semitic background for this Greek text, the statement in 1Th 4:4 would> refer to the need for sexual life to be both holy and honorable> (see 23.63). And this, I think, is the most reasonable accounting for theexpression we> have in 1 Thess 4:4.What does “this” refer to?Sexual life with an already acquired wife or an honorable way of acquiring awife? If the verb means “acquire” the second seems more likely.> > What of BDAG?> > Here’s the meat of the account:> – 1 Pt 3:7 woman is called ASQENESTERON SKEUOS (ASQENHS 2a). TO> hEAUTOU SKEUOS 1 Th 4:4 from antiquity has been interpreted to mean one’s> own body (Theodoret, Calvin, Milligan, Schlantz, MDibelius, RKnox transl.> ’44; CCD transl. ’41, mg.; NRSV) or one’s own wife (Theodore of> Mopsuestia, Schmiedel, vDobschütz, Frame, Oepke, WVogel, ThBl 13, ’34,83-85; RSV et> al.) The former interpr. is supported by passages cited at the> beg. of this section 3, and the latter is in accord w. rabb. usage(Billerb. III 632f.> S. also KTAOMAI 1).Iver Larsen
Gal 4:4 (Some thoughts on a new NA)1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI …
1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI … Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Jul 13 08:46:48 EDT 2002
1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI … Ephesians 4:12 At 1:10 PM +0200 7/13/02, Iver Larsen wrote:>Dear Carl,> >Thanks for the compilation of thoughts on this verse. It is not absoslutely>clear to me what your conclusion is. My understanding is – and was – that it>refers to “acquiring in a holy an honorable way a woman to be one’s wife”>which is how the vast majority of Bible translators have understood it. As>far as I can see you agree. What ways are honorable is a matter of culture,>religious convictions and personal ethics.I agree that “acquiring in a holy an honorable way a woman to be one’swife” is what the phrase must mean. Whether that’s what “the vast majorityof Bible translators have understood it (to be)” is less clear to me: inchecking translations I’ve found what seems to me a growing tendency tounderstand SKEUOS in 1 Thess 4:4 as “one’s own body” and a rather smallminority seriously believing that SKEUOS = “penis.” I’ve tried to show thatboth these interpretations are untenable unless one twists the sense ofKTASQAI into something which absolutely no evidence shows that it can mean.I became more curious about this question when asked (off-list) recentlyabout what seems (to me, at least) to be a strange interlacing ofutilitarian terminology and tender sentiment in 1 Peter 3:7 :hOI ANDRES hOMOIWS, SUNOIKOUNTES KATA GNWSIN hWS ASQENESTERWi SKEUEI TWiGUNAIKEIWi, APONEMONTES TIMHN hWS KAI SUGKLHRONOMOIS CARITOS ZWHS EIS TO MHEGKOPTESQAI TAS PROSEUCAS hUMWNas well as in our text under consideration TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI ENhAGIASMWi KAI TIMHi What I mean is that SKEUOS is just about as utilitariana term that one can find in ancient Greek, perhaps even as varied in usageas CRHMA (“thing,” “implement,” or the like, in the plural “funds” or”money”). SKEUOS really means “utensil” and while in the plural quitecommonly used for “gear” or “furnishings,” it is most commonly used in thesingular for “container,” particularly, I suppose, for a container ofsomething fluid or loose–and in the ancient world, that is essentially theceramic pot of widely-varied shape and size. Perhaps it’s not surprisingthat SKEUOS should be used of a person as an instrument in a very positivesense, as in the oracular language of Acts 9:15 where God describes Paul asSKEUOS EKLOGHS MOI … TOU BASTASAI TO ONOMA MOU ENWPION EQNWN TE KAIBASILEWN hUIWN TE ISRAHL. It seems a little stranger that Paul in Romans9:22f. should speak of those destined for salvation and for damnationrespectively as SKEUH ORGHS KATHRTISMENA EIS APWLEIAN and SKEUH ELEOUS hAPROHTOIMASEN EIS DOXAN–i.e. “wrath-pots” and “mercy-pots.” And in asimilar manner it seems to me that SKEUOS in 1 Thess 4:4 and in 1 Peter 3:7means essentially “sex-pot”–not in the colloquial slang sense which thatphrase carries in contemporary English, or at least not with the sameconnotation–yet nevertheless essentially “person serving the function ofsexual partner.” And that, I think, is how SKEUOS should be understood inthese passages. In a ‘relatively’ literal translation I would turn 1 Thess3:3-4 into: “This is God’s will, your consecration: that you abstain fromsexual immorality and that each of you should know how to get his ownsexual partner in a way that consecrates and honors (her).” I’m tempted towrite “it” for “her,” primarily because I think the neuter SKEUOS isimplicit, but I don’t doubt that Paul is referring to a female sexualpartner, as is made explicit in the corresponding text in 1 Peter 3:7.At a later point in your response you wrote:>> … Semitic background for this Greek text, the statement in 1Th 4:4 would>> refer to the need for sexual life to be both holy and honorable>> (see 23.63). And this, I think, is the most reasonable accounting for the>>> expression we have in 1 Thess 4:4.> >What does “this” refer to?>Sexual life with an already acquired wife or an honorable way of acquiring a>wife? If the verb means “acquire” the second seems more likely.To which I would respond that the text explicitly names the latter, butdoes, I think, imply inclusively the former. That is to say, myunderstanding is that here, as in 1 Cor 7, Paul understands sexuality as anessential aspect of being human but also as an urgency that requires an”outlet.” As PORNEIA is not a permissible “outlet,” one should acquire asexual partner in a way that consecrates and honors her. I really think itis implicit that “acquire a sexual partner in a way that consecrates andhonors her” means “if one doesn’t already have such a SKEUOS.”I hope that this clarifies anything that was unclear in my earlier post.While it may be true, as Iver asserts, that this is the way in which 1Thess 4:4 has most commonly been understood by translators over thecenturies, my own observation is that translators over the centuries haveconverted SKEUOS into “vessel” and refrained from making the sense intendedas clear as they ought; then in recent years there has been a tendency tounderstand SKEUOS in different ways–quite erroneously, in my opinion.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI …Ephesians 4:12
1 Thess 4:4 TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI … Iver Larsen iver_larsen at sil.org
Sat Jul 13 11:43:11 EDT 2002
ERCESQAI, 1 ERCESQAI, 1 > > I hope that this clarifies anything that was unclear in my earlier post.> While it may be true, as Iver asserts, that this is the way in which 1> Thess 4:4 has most commonly been understood by translators over the> centuries, my own observation is that translators over the centuries have> converted SKEUOS into “vessel” and refrained from making the> sense intended> as clear as they ought; then in recent years there has been a tendency to> understand SKEUOS in different ways–quite erroneously, in my opinion.Yes, it does. Thank you. And you are also right that many recenttranslations have gone for the “body” option, so I retract my hastystatement. I was probably biased by the fact that all Danish versions I knowof have taken the “acquiring a wife” option. (Except the latest from 1992which unfortunately changed to “have a wife”.) I am happy that we are inagreement, and I’ll do my best to persuade my translation colleagues tofollow RSV as the one which best reflects the intended meaning of the Greektext in its context.Thanks again,Iver Larsen
ERCESQAI, 1ERCESQAI, 1
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 James & Ali Stone stonesinafrica at yahoo.com
Thu Oct 19 12:45:27 EDT 2006
[] 1st year Greek reading material [] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Hi allI was wondering if someone would mind giving some pros and cons for translating SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 as:1) “body”2) “vessel”3) “wife”4) another alternative?Thanks,James StoneGeorge Whitefield CollegeCape Town, South Africa ———————————Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
[] 1st year Greek reading material[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Oct 19 13:43:24 EDT 2006
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 [] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 On Oct 19, 2006, at 12:45 PM, James & Ali Stone wrote:> Hi all> > I was wondering if someone would mind giving some pros and cons for > translating SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 as:> > 1) “body”> 2) “vessel”> 3) “wife”> 4) another alternative?Check the archives. My own fullest contributions are:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//2002-July/021814.htmlhttp://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//2002-July/021820.htmlCarl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Webb webb at selftest.net
Thu Oct 19 14:24:33 EDT 2006
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 [] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Dear Carl,I’ve read your posts, which are very illuminating. I wonder if the middleform of KTASQAI in TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI could open the possibility thatPaul might mean “exercise ownership of his own body”. That would make senseof the whole context to me if it were possible. Paul sees the body as avessel for which the person is responsible, comparing it elsewhere, forexample, to a tent that we live in (2 Cor. 5:1). But without the perfecttense form, I am dubious.But I have to admit my interest in the outcome–not wanting to have to admitto people that Paul used instrumentalizing language about women’s bodies.Webb Mealy—–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org[mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl W. ConradSent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:43 AMTo: James & Ali StoneCc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4On Oct 19, 2006, at 12:45 PM, James & Ali Stone wrote:> Hi all> > I was wondering if someone would mind giving some pros and cons for > translating SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 as:> > 1) “body”> 2) “vessel”> 3) “wife”> 4) another alternative?Check the archives. My own fullest contributions are:http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//2002-July/021814.htmlhttp://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//2002-July/021820.htmlCarl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Oct 19 14:54:00 EDT 2006
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 [] Is Thucydides helpful reading material? On Oct 19, 2006, at 2:24 PM, Webb wrote:> Dear Carl,> I’ve read your posts, which are very illuminating. I wonder if the > middle> form of KTASQAI in TO hEAUTOU SKEUOS KTASQAI could open the > possibility that> Paul might mean “exercise ownership of his own body”. That would > make sense> of the whole context to me if it were possible. Paul sees the body > as a> vessel for which the person is responsible, comparing it elsewhere, > for> example, to a tent that we live in (2 Cor. 5:1). But without the > perfect> tense form, I am dubious.KTAOMAI is what I prefer to call a middle (rather than “deponent” verb: there is no active form at all: one always acquires “for oneself.” Moreover, this verb doesn’t mean “exercise ownership” but “get ownership” and its perfect, KEKTHMAI, means “own.”> But I have to admit my interest in the outcome–not wanting to have > to admit> to people that Paul used instrumentalizing language about women’s > bodies.I suspect that the ancients were less squeamish about this; Greeks spoke readily of “tools” (hOPLA) and “vessels” or “gear” (SKEUH) and “chattels” (KTHMATA), using such words indiscriminately of persons and things.> —–Original Message—–> From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org> [mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Carl W. Conrad> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:43 AM> To: James & Ali Stone> Cc: at lists.ibiblio.org> Subject: Re: [] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4> > > On Oct 19, 2006, at 12:45 PM, James & Ali Stone wrote:> >> Hi all>> >> I was wondering if someone would mind giving some pros and cons for>> translating SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4 as:>> >> 1) “body”>> 2) “vessel”>> 3) “wife”>> 4) another alternative?> > Check the archives. My own fullest contributions are:> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//2002-July/021814.html> http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail//2002-July/021820.html> > Carl W. Conrad> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243> cwconrad2 at mac.com> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/> > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/> > > —> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Retired)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad2 at mac.comWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
[] SKEUOS in 1 Thessalonians 4:4[] Is Thucydides helpful reading material?