[bible passage=”John 2:12″]
Greetings ers —
I am looking at the textual note for John 2:12 in my UBS GNT, 4th revised edition.
The first manuscript listed for the first variant is a curlicue P (meaning papyrus) with superscript 66c.
I see P66 in the table at the front of the book, but I’m wondering about the “c.” For “Location” the table says “Cologny; Dublin; Cologne.” Does the “c” by chance mean that the papyrus is extant in three parts, in three places? And the part including John 2:12 is in Cologne?
I googled P66 and found a wikipedia reference to the Bodner Papyrii, of which P66 is evidently one, but I find no clue as to P66c. Also, the wikipedia article says P66 is in Cologny, Switzerland; nothing about Dublin or Cologne.
I can’t find anything in the introduction that explains this particular point, or I guess now I have 2 questions:
(1) what does the “c” in “P66c” mean and (2) what do the other 2 locations “Dublin” and “Cologne” signify, for P66?
And a third:
(3) is there a good online master cross-reference to the ancient manuscripts listed in my GNT? trying to google e.g. “P66 papyrus Dublin” is opening a can of worms… I found K C Hanson’s list at http://www.kchanson.com/papyri.html but it only lists P66 at Cologny…
Thanks so much for your help!
Susan Jeffers
—– Original Message —– Sent: 18. november 2010 16:43
That is correct.
Yes.
I would suggest this book, but it is not free ($39.95 from Logos.com where you can get an electronic version.)
Comfort, P. W., & Barrett, D. P. (2001). The text of the earliest New Testament Greek manuscripts. Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Iver has explained the symbols well. If there is no correction, the entry is simply p66; if there is a correction, one will find both p66* and p66c in the apparatus. Same goes for other manuscripts.
For a pretty good image of p66, see here: http://www.bible-researcher.com/papy66big.jpg. This image zooms in size fairly well and is quite readable. The first line and most of the second line is the last part of John 7:52, followed by 8:12-16. There are at least two corrections in this photo: a minor correction (the insertion of an epsilon above the line in line 10 of the photo), and a major one in 7:52, at the top of the page. Here the original scribe wrote (apologies if I hose up the transliteration; I am using a capital letter “C” for the sigma of the manuscript):
NHCON KAI IDE OTI EK THC GALILAIAC O PROFHTHC OYK EGIRETAI
The corrector then came along and corrected the text in three steps (not necessarily in this sequence): the corrector (1) erased, sort of, the “O” at the beginning of the second line; (2) drew a single diagonal line over the “P” of PROFHTHC in the second line of text, and (3) drew two diagonal lines over the “E” of EK in the first line of text. The paleographers interpret the diagonal lines to mean “first read PROFHTHC, then go back to EK.” So the text as corrected reads:
NHCON KAI IDE OTI PROFHTHC EK THC GALILAIAC OYK EGIRETAI
Apologies for going a bit beyond the scope of b-greek, but I hope this will not only answer Susan’s query but be of wider interest as well. thanks, Mike Holmes
—–Original Message—– Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:44 AM
and a fourth question:
Farther down in the same UBS4 GNT John 2:12 textual apparatus entry, a different textual variant lists P66*. What’s the “*”?
Thanks in advance —
Susan Jeffers
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
—– Original Message —– Sent: 18. november 2010 16:43
That is correct.
Yes.
I would suggest this book, but it is not free ($39.95 from Logos.com where you can get an electronic version.)
Comfort, P. W., & Barrett, D. P. (2001). The text of the earliest New Testament Greek manuscripts. Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
Iver Larsen
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Iver has explained the symbols well. If there is no correction, the entry is simply p66; if there is a correction, one will find both p66* and p66c in the apparatus. Same goes for other manuscripts.
For a pretty good image of p66, see here: http://www.bible-researcher.com/papy66big.jpg. This image zooms in size fairly well and is quite readable. The first line and most of the second line is the last part of John 7:52, followed by 8:12-16. There are at least two corrections in this photo: a minor correction (the insertion of an epsilon above the line in line 10 of the photo), and a major one in 7:52, at the top of the page. Here the original scribe wrote (apologies if I hose up the transliteration; I am using a capital letter “C” for the sigma of the manuscript):
NHCON KAI IDE OTI EK THC GALILAIAC O PROFHTHC OYK EGIRETAI
The corrector then came along and corrected the text in three steps (not necessarily in this sequence): the corrector (1) erased, sort of, the “O” at the beginning of the second line; (2) drew a single diagonal line over the “P” of PROFHTHC in the second line of text, and (3) drew two diagonal lines over the “E” of EK in the first line of text. The paleographers interpret the diagonal lines to mean “first read PROFHTHC, then go back to EK.” So the text as corrected reads:
NHCON KAI IDE OTI PROFHTHC EK THC GALILAIAC OYK EGIRETAI
Apologies for going a bit beyond the scope of b-greek, but I hope this will not only answer Susan’s query but be of wider interest as well. thanks, Mike Holmes
—–Original Message—– Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 5:44 AM
and a fourth question:
Farther down in the same UBS4 GNT John 2:12 textual apparatus entry, a different textual variant lists P66*. What’s the “*”?
Thanks in advance —
Susan Jeffers
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek — B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
and a fourth question:
Farther down in the same UBS4 GNT John 2:12 textual apparatus entry, a different textual variant lists P66*. What’s the “*”?
Thanks in advance —
Susan Jeffers
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
According to Comfort and Barratt, the manuscript is housed as follows:
Cologny-Geneva, Switzerland: Bibliotheca Bodmeriana (P. Bodmer II); one leaf is in Cologne, Germany: Institut für Altertumskunde der Universität zu Köln (inv. nr. 4274/4298).
So, one leaf is in Köln, Germany, the rest in Geneva. I don’t where Dublin comes in. Maybe there is a copy there in the Chester Beatty Library. Looking at their website, I can see that they have p45, p46 and p47, but I do not find a reference to p66. http://www.cbl.ie/Collections/The-Western-Collection/Papyri/Biblical.aspx
Comfort and Barratt also say that “P66 has preserved the work of three individuals: the original scribe, a thoroughgoing corrector (diorthōtēs), and a minor corrector.”
P66 is known for it many corrections. The original or first writing is called P66*. As the scribe was writing, he would at times discover a mistake in the middle of word, then erase one or more letters and continue writing. Then someone went over the ms again carefully and made hundreds of corrections. James Royse believes that it was the scribe himself who afterwards corrected his own work. Philip Comfort and others think it was a different, more careful person. In any case, there seems to also have been a third person later making some few adjustments. P66c refers to the corrected version.
In the case of John 2:12, the first writing did not include the word AUTOU after ADELFOI, but the diorthōtēs then inserted the word between the lines. The reading without AUTOU is also found in p75, a close relative of p66 from the same area but made a few decades later. B is also lacking AUTOU, but B seems to be dependent on p75, at least there is a lot of agreements between them.
Susan, Iver is right. I was able to examine the Chester-Beatty papyri personally this year and P66 is not there. They are located in the Chester-Beatty library behind the Dublin Castle, on the second floor, left hall. Among newer ones, the four oldest texts are located on a pyramid shape platform in the center of the exhibit. They are P45, P46 and P47 and as well as one OT text. You can read my observations if you are interested: Investigating Ireland => http://cupandcross.com/index.php/investigating-ireland/
Dony K. Donev
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Iver wrote:
“P66 is known for it many corrections. The original or first writing is called P66*. As the scribe was writing, he would at times discover a mistake in the middle of word, then erase one or more letters and continue writing. Then someone went over the ms again carefully and made hundreds of corrections. James Royse believes that it was the scribe himself who afterwards corrected his own work. Philip Comfort and others think it was a different, more careful person. In any case, there seems to also have been a third person later making some few adjustments. P66c refers to the corrected version.”
So, if I’m understanding correctly, these corrections are actually visible in the writing on the sheets of papyrus — is that right?
As opposed to “corrections” hypothesized by scholars e.g. in theories of markan priority or source theory?
So that, on one page of the papyrus, one could see both the P66* wording (the original) along with the wording of the corrections (P66c)?
Very interesting. Can you suggest a book or (preferably) online source where I can read more about this?
Thanks!!!
Susan Jeffers
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
One of the most complete works dealing with the manuscripts is that which Iver quoted
Comfort, Philip Wesley and David P. Barrett. The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts. A corrected, enlarged ed. of The complete text of the earliest New Testament manuscripts. Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House, 2001. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thu, November 18, 2010 6:43:58 AM
Iver wrote:
“P66 is known for it many corrections. The original or first writing is called P66*. As the scribe was writing, he would at times discover a mistake in the middle of word, then erase one or more letters and continue writing. Then someone went over the ms again carefully and made hundreds of corrections. James Royse believes that it was the scribe himself who afterwards corrected his own work. Philip Comfort and others think it was a different, more careful person. In any case, there seems to also have been a third person later making some few adjustments. P66c refers to the corrected version.”
So, if I’m understanding correctly, these corrections are actually visible in the writing on the sheets of papyrus — is that right?
As opposed to “corrections” hypothesized by scholars e.g. in theories of markan priority or source theory?
So that, on one page of the papyrus, one could see both the P66* wording (the original) along with the wording of the corrections (P66c)?
Very interesting. Can you suggest a book or (preferably) online source where I can read more about this?
Thanks!!!
Susan Jeffers
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Thanks very much to all who replied to my query. I have ordered the Comfort book – I heard him speak a couple of times at SBL, back when I was still able to get there (arthritis now makes it too tough to get around)… I have several books by Dr. Comfort, but not this one. I also ordered the pocket-size GNT from Bob Jones U.
—–
What with (U.S.) Thanksgiving coming up — let me just say THANK YOU to all of you. You make b-greek such a wonderful place for those who love and study Scripture in Greek — and the Greek of Scripture —
Charis kai eirene humin!
(sorry I’ve never mastered either the transliteration code, nor figured out how to make the Greek characters themselves appear)
Susan Jeffers
and a fourth question:
Farther down in the same UBS4 GNT John 2:12 textual apparatus entry, a different textual variant lists P66*. What’s the “*”?
Thanks in advance —
Susan Jeffers
href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org href=”mailto:B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org
According to Comfort and Barratt, the manuscript is housed as follows:
Cologny-Geneva, Switzerland: Bibliotheca Bodmeriana (P. Bodmer II); one leaf is in Cologne, Germany: Institut für Altertumskunde der Universität zu Köln (inv. nr. 4274/4298).
So, one leaf is in Köln, Germany, the rest in Geneva. I don’t where Dublin comes in. Maybe there is a copy there in the Chester Beatty Library. Looking at their website, I can see that they have p45, p46 and p47, but I do not find a reference to p66. http://www.cbl.ie/Collections/The-Western-Collection/Papyri/Biblical.aspx
Comfort and Barratt also say that “P66 has preserved the work of three individuals: the original scribe, a thoroughgoing corrector (diorthōtēs), and a minor corrector.”
P66 is known for it many corrections. The original or first writing is called P66*. As the scribe was writing, he would at times discover a mistake in the middle of word, then erase one or more letters and continue writing. Then someone went over the ms again carefully and made hundreds of corrections. James Royse believes that it was the scribe himself who afterwards corrected his own work. Philip Comfort and others think it was a different, more careful person. In any case, there seems to also have been a third person later making some few adjustments. P66c refers to the corrected version.
In the case of John 2:12, the first writing did not include the word AUTOU after ADELFOI, but the diorthōtēs then inserted the word between the lines. The reading without AUTOU is also found in p75, a close relative of p66 from the same area but made a few decades later. B is also lacking AUTOU, but B seems to be dependent on p75, at least there is a lot of agreements between them.
Susan, Iver is right. I was able to examine the Chester-Beatty papyri personally this year and P66 is not there. They are located in the Chester-Beatty library behind the Dublin Castle, on the second floor, left hall. Among newer ones, the four oldest texts are located on a pyramid shape platform in the center of the exhibit. They are P45, P46 and P47 and as well as one OT text. You can read my observations if you are interested: Investigating Ireland => http://cupandcross.com/index.php/investigating-ireland/
Dony K. Donev
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Iver wrote:
“P66 is known for it many corrections. The original or first writing is called P66*. As the scribe was writing, he would at times discover a mistake in the middle of word, then erase one or more letters and continue writing. Then someone went over the ms again carefully and made hundreds of corrections. James Royse believes that it was the scribe himself who afterwards corrected his own work. Philip Comfort and others think it was a different, more careful person. In any case, there seems to also have been a third person later making some few adjustments. P66c refers to the corrected version.”
So, if I’m understanding correctly, these corrections are actually visible in the writing on the sheets of papyrus — is that right?
As opposed to “corrections” hypothesized by scholars e.g. in theories of markan priority or source theory?
So that, on one page of the papyrus, one could see both the P66* wording (the original) along with the wording of the corrections (P66c)?
Very interesting. Can you suggest a book or (preferably) online source where I can read more about this?
Thanks!!!
Susan Jeffers
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
One of the most complete works dealing with the manuscripts is that which Iver quoted
Comfort, Philip Wesley and David P. Barrett. The Text of the Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts. A corrected, enlarged ed. of The complete text of the earliest New Testament manuscripts. Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House, 2001. george gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
– Jan Hus _________
________________________________ href=”mailto:b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org”>b-greek@lists.ibiblio.org Sent: Thu, November 18, 2010 6:43:58 AM
Iver wrote:
“P66 is known for it many corrections. The original or first writing is called P66*. As the scribe was writing, he would at times discover a mistake in the middle of word, then erase one or more letters and continue writing. Then someone went over the ms again carefully and made hundreds of corrections. James Royse believes that it was the scribe himself who afterwards corrected his own work. Philip Comfort and others think it was a different, more careful person. In any case, there seems to also have been a third person later making some few adjustments. P66c refers to the corrected version.”
So, if I’m understanding correctly, these corrections are actually visible in the writing on the sheets of papyrus — is that right?
As opposed to “corrections” hypothesized by scholars e.g. in theories of markan priority or source theory?
So that, on one page of the papyrus, one could see both the P66* wording (the original) along with the wording of the corrections (P66c)?
Very interesting. Can you suggest a book or (preferably) online source where I can read more about this?
Thanks!!!
Susan Jeffers
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
— B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek@lists.ibiblio.org http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
Thanks very much to all who replied to my query. I have ordered the Comfort book – I heard him speak a couple of times at SBL, back when I was still able to get there (arthritis now makes it too tough to get around)… I have several books by Dr. Comfort, but not this one. I also ordered the pocket-size GNT from Bob Jones U.
—–
What with (U.S.) Thanksgiving coming up — let me just say THANK YOU to all of you. You make b-greek such a wonderful place for those who love and study Scripture in Greek — and the Greek of Scripture —
Charis kai eirene humin!
(sorry I’ve never mastered either the transliteration code, nor figured out how to make the Greek characters themselves appear)
Susan Jeffers