kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Fri Apr 7 13:01:33 EDT 2000
Previous message: Book Evaluation Requested Next message: Rom 1:1 KLHTOS APOSTOLOS Gary,A few comments. on 04/07/00 10:28 AM, Mr. Gary S. Dykes wrote:> Kosmos is used with several different senses in John’s writings.Agreed. At least two senses if not more and several referents.>For > example if it must mean “world” (as in the created orderly planet and all> of its inhabitants) then what about I John 2:15, which would then> contradict John 3:16.The problem here is a misunderstanding of John 3:16. In this John 3:16 Godis loving his enemies, represented by KOSMOS. In I John 2:15 KOSMOS is theordered system of evil that includes humans and other spiritual beings thatare opposed to God. There is a different emphasis in these passages but nocontradiction. The confusion here is in part about AGAPAW. God loves hisenemies in John 3:16 but in I John 2:15 the church is warned not to love thesystem of evil that is populated by the enemies of God. The sense of AGAPAWis different and the referent of KOSMOS is different. But the general ideaof KOSMOS is the same. The love that God has for the KOSMOS is not the lovethat is being warned against in I John 2:15. The referent of KOSMOS in John3:16 is not the system of evil that controls the universe, it is the peoplewho are caught in this system that God loves.> One needs to study each usage of KOSMOJ in John’s writings, they do differ.> Hence many folks see the term in 3:16 as signifying the CHOSEN especially when> John 17:9 is also recalled.In both of these passages KOSMOS is seen as that which is opposed to God.How can John be using KOSMOS to refer to the elect as a group in John 17:9when KOSMOS is clearly set in contrast to the elect?There are over a hundred uses of KOSMOS in John’s gospel, letters and theApocalypse. I have not carefully analyzed each and every one. But I havenever seen a single irrefutable example of KOSMOS used to refer to the electas a group. I don’t think there is one.Cheers,Clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Fri Apr 7 14:51:16 EDT 2000
Previous message: Rom 1:1 KLHTOS APOSTOLOS Next message: Recommended readings for a beginner on 04/07/00 10:28 AM, Mr. Gary S. Dykes wrote:> One needs to study each usage of KOSMOJ in John’s writings, they do> differ.Gary,A few more comments.For a brief review of the use of KOSMOS in John see Leon Morris, John NICNT,1st ed. page 126ff. Morris does a good job of demonstrating the polysemy inJohn’s use of this term. The 17th chapter of John’s gospel is a particularlygood text to observe this polysemy. The word KOSMOS is used in this passagein an number of senses and with a number of referents. In this text we seean example of John’s habit of weaving a texture with words, shifting andshading the sense of a word in subtle ways that make exegesis bothchallenging and at times exasperating. I suspect (not sure however) thatJohn 17 contains most if not all of the uses of this word that will be foundin Johannine literature. Someone else will need to prove or disprove this.Clay– Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” Bill Ross wross at farmerstel.com
Tue Apr 11 11:24:39 EDT 2000
Previous message: Rom 1:1 KLHTOS APOSTOLOS Next message: Rom 1:1 KLHTOS APOSTOLOS <Clayton wrote…>>For a brief review of the use of KOSMOS in John see Leon Morris, JohnNICNT,1st ed. page 126ff. Morris does a good job of demonstrating the polysemy inJohn’s use of this term. The 17th chapter of John’s gospel is a particularlygood text to observe this polysemy. The word KOSMOS is used in this passagein an number of senses and with a number of referents. In this text we seean example of John’s habit of weaving a texture with words, shifting andshading the sense of a word in subtle ways that make exegesis bothchallenging and at times exasperating. I suspect (not sure however) thatJohn 17 contains most if not all of the uses of this word that will be foundin Johannine literature. Someone else will need to prove or disprove this.<Bill>I had to look up polysemy:Main Entry: po*ly*se*mousPronunciation: “pa-lE-‘sE-m&s, p&-‘li-s&-m&sFunction: adjectiveEtymology: Late Latin polysemus, from Greek polysEmos, from poly- + sEmasignDate: 1884: having multiple meanings– po*ly*se*my /-mE/ nounHence, polysemy comes from the same root as “semantic” as in “semanticrange”.I am not absolutely sure exactly what you were trying to say in your post.Are you saying that the semantic range of KOSMOS is somewhat “plastic” andcan mean many things beyond the semantic range of the word, as defined bycenturies of Greek usage? Are you saying that John assigned new meanings atwhim within a paragraph? Or rather, that Jesus uses words in such a way thatin one breath they remain within the semantic range of the word, then in thenext breath he uses it to signify something new, totally unique to Jesus,and even contradicting the previous usage such that whereas the previoususage was “non-elect” now it means “elect”? I hope that is not what you aresaying (though I know many would say this very thing).By “semantic range” we show the valid usages for exegesis. Straying very farfrom that our polysemy quickly becomes the condemnable practice of employing”plastic words”:2 Peter 2:3KAI EN PLEONEXIA **PLASTOIS LOGOIS** UMAS EMPOREUSONTAI OIS TOKRIMA EKPALAI OUK ARGEI KAI H APWLEIA AUTWN OU NUSTAZEISo the question at hand is, is there anything in John 17 that requires us toabandon exegesis of words using the semantic range of each in favor ofeisegesis, assigning new meanings to the words? And if we can do it here,why not everywhere?!I say we need not go out of the bounds of the normal semantic range ofKOSMOS that anyone in the 1st century would have understood.I can’t spare the time to type in the Lexicion description of the semanticrange of KOSMOS, but suffice it to say that it has never before nor sinceincluded “elect, Christians, believers” etc.But let me be quick to say that KOSMOS is not a “legal term” and does notbear the burden of meaning “every person without exception”. Just like ourword “world”, it is understood as “the general population”. Also included inits semantic range is “the Earth”. In several of these verses, either ofthese meanings is intelligible unless one’s understanding has already beensettled by a forced-fit theology.So let’s see if were are stumped from understanding these verses using thesewords from the semantic range of KOSMOS:John 17:5 (KJV)”And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory whichI had with thee before the EARTH was.”John 17:6 (KJV)”I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of theGENERAL POPULATION: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they havekept thy word.”John 17:9 (KJV)”I pray for them: I pray not for the GENERAL POPULATION, but for them whichthou hast given me; for they are thine.”John 17:11 (KJV)”And now I am no more in the GENERAL POPULATION, but these are in theGENERAL POPULATION, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine ownname those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.”John 17:12 (KJV)”While I was with them in the GENERAL POPULATION, I kept them in thy name:those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the sonof perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”John 17:13 (KJV)”And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the EARTH, that theymight have my joy fulfilled in themselves.”John 17:14 (KJV)”I have given them thy word; and the GENERAL POPULATION hath hated them,because they are not of the GENERAL POPULATION, even as I am not of theGENERAL POPULATION.”John 17:15 (KJV)”I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the GENERALPOPULATION/EARTH, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.”John 17:16 (KJV)”They are not of the GENERAL POPULATION/EARTH, even as I am not of theGENERAL POPULATION/EARTH.”John 17:18 (KJV)”As thou hast sent me into the GENERAL POPULATION, even so have I also sentthem into the GENERAL POPULATION.”John 17:21 (KJV)”That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, thatthey also may be one in us: that the GENERAL POPULATION may believe thatthou hast sent me.”John 17:23 (KJV)”I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and thatthe GENERAL POPULATION may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them,as thou hast loved me.”John 17:24 (KJV)”Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where Iam; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thoulovedst me before the foundation of the EARTH.”John 17:25 (KJV)”O righteous Father, the GENERAL POPULATION hath not known thee: but I haveknown thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.”Also interesting is some people’s eisegesis of John’s usage in 1 John. Johnwas writing to answer the Gnsotic heresy, which denies the existence orrelevance of the physical, material world. Yet in explaining KOSMOS in 1John 2:15-17, preachers tell us that John was referring to a concept of”world” that is not physical, but more Gnostic! But let’s see if we can’tjust use plain old meanings and still understand John:1 John 2:15 Love not the MATERIAL WORLD, neither the things that are in the MATERIALWORLD. If any man love the MATERIAL WORLD, the love of the Father is not inhim.16 For all that is **in** the MATERIAL WORLD, the lust of the flesh, andthe lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not out of the Father, butis of the GENERAL POPULATION.17 And the MATERIAL WORLD passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he thatdoeth the will of God abideth for ever.And of course, even if words were so plastic that, like Humpty Dumpty, wecould assign new meanings at will, my previous post shows that there is nochance whatsoever that John intended anything other than GENERAL POPULATIONin this verse:1 John 2:2 (KJV)”And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but alsofor the sins of the whole world.”I have argued from the English, but I am posting it here because I think itbehooves those who profess to be scholarly and faithfully interpreting theKoine according to the Grammar not take sweeping liberties as to thefundamental premise that we understand words by their usage, not by ourtheology.Bill Ross
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Tue Apr 11 14:08:18 EDT 2000
Previous message: doulos Next message: doulos on 04/11/00 8:24 AM, Bill Ross wrote:> I am not absolutely sure exactly what you were trying to say in your post.Bill,I use polysemy the way it was defined by some AI (artificial intelligence)engineers working with semantic networks back in the mid-80’s. Polysemyrefers to a case where a single instance of a single lexeme in a singlecontext can be instantiated with more than one sense. This also applies tofunctional distributions. That is, a single instance of a single lexeme in asingle context can be instantiated with more than one semantic function.I also apply this rule to grammatical functions but since that is outside ofthe domain of semantics that is a different question.> > Are you saying that the semantic range of KOSMOS is somewhat “plastic” and> can mean many things beyond the semantic range of the wordThe way I understand the notion of “semantic domain” this question has nomeaning. We discover which semantic domains a given lexeme is a member of byobservation of the lexeme’s distribution within a given corpus.A lexeme can never be instantiated with a sense or a semantic function whichis “beyond the semantic range of the word.” If you apply the bell curve tosemantic distributions of a common word like KOSMOS you will always findsome members outside the second and third standard deviations. This shouldnot cause us any consternation. But the issue of the bell curve is notrelated to the issue of polysemy at all. It is a completely differentquestion. — Clayton Stirling BartholomewThree Tree PointP.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” clayton stirling bartholomew c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net
Tue Apr 11 14:37:05 EDT 2000
Previous message: doulos Next message: Book Evaluation Requested on 04/11/00 8:24 AM, Bill Ross wrote:> Are you saying that John assigned new meanings at> whim within a paragraph?Bill,One final thought on this.I think what Leon Morris has discovered in his long term study of John, isthat there is within John’s writings some INTENTIONAL ambiguity in therepetitive use of certain words. This ambiguity is part of John’s discoursestrategy. You may not like ambiguity but it is there and I think that Johnintended it to be there. If intentional semantic ambiguity is ignored or itsexistence is denied when studying the gospel of John we will miss what Johnis doing and saying.Ambiguity is not always bad.Clay
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Tue Apr 11 20:06:15 EDT 2000
Previous message: idiom ‘give praise’ (exactly) Next message: “Man and Message”, by Callow In a message dated 4/11/2000 12:22:02 PM Central Standard Time, c.s.bartholomew at worldnet.att.net writes:<< I use polysemy the way it was defined by some AI (artificial intelligence) engineers working with semantic networks back in the mid-80’s. Polysemy refers to a case where a single instance of a single lexeme in a single context can be instantiated with more than one sense. This also applies to functional distributions. That is, a single instance of a single lexeme in a single context can be instantiated with more than one semantic function. >>hO ESTIN MEQERMHNEUOMENON Words having the same form can have different meanings.gfsomsel
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” Wayne Leman wleman at mcn.net
Tue Apr 11 20:45:18 EDT 2000
Previous message: “Man and Message”, by Callow Next message: “Man and Message”, by Callow > >hO ESTIN MEQERMHNEUOMENON> >Words having the same form can have different meanings.Indeed, and in the commercial fishing family I come from, we illustrate itas:We can fish.it’s a sign,IXQUS,<:==}many fish,many carp,poly carp :)Wayne—Wayne LemanBible translation site: http://bibletranslation.lookscool.com/
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or “the chosen” Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Apr 11 23:20:25 EDT 2000
Previous message: Credits externally Next message: kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” At 6:45 PM -0600 4/11/00, Wayne Leman wrote:>> >>hO ESTIN MEQERMHNEUOMENON>> >>Words having the same form can have different meanings.> >Indeed, and in the commercial fishing family I come from, we illustrate it>as:> >We can fish.> >it’s a sign,>IXQUS,><:==}>many fish,>many carp,>poly carp 🙂Gee whiz, Wayne–and poly carp also implies a big catch, don’t it?– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics/Washington UniversityOne Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
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kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or”the chosen” Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Tue Apr 11 23:40:50 EDT 2000
Previous message: kosmos being translated as “Christians” or “God’s people” or “the chosen” Next message: Greek diagraming In a message dated 4/11/2000 9:23:46 PM Central Standard Time, cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:<< At 6:45 PM -0600 4/11/00, Wayne Leman wrote: >> >>hO ESTIN MEQERMHNEUOMENON >> >>Words having the same form can have different meanings. > >Indeed, and in the commercial fishing family I come from, we illustrate it >as: > >We can fish. > >it’s a sign, >IXQUS, ><:==} >many fish, >many carp, >poly carp 🙂 Gee whiz, Wayne–and poly carp also implies a big catch, don’t it? — >>Mercy! My sides are splitting. Who says Greek is dull?gfsomsel
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[] KOSMOS Carlton Winbery winberycl at earthlink.net
Thu Aug 31 20:59:24 EDT 2006
[] KOSMOS [] KOSMOS > John 1:10 seems to me to be three distinct uses of KOSMOS.EN TWi KOSMWi HN, KAI hO KOSMOS DI’ AUTOU EGENETO, KAI hO KOSMOS AUTON OUK EGNW.1) alludes to him being part of humanity.2) the universe3) humanity apart from GodIt may help to understand how dictionaries are written. To write a diction for Greek of the Helenistic age, one must study as many documents from that period as one can find and then from the context of such written documents one learns how words are used. Its interesting that in a note in the KJV the translators (through the hand of John Reynolds) mention a word that, as far as they knew, occurred nowhere else in known Greek literature. They indicated that the translation was little more than a guess. They said that it “had neither sister nor brother.” As George indicated dictionary writers observe usages in various writings and record their observations. translators use dictionaries to learn ranges (semantic domains) of usages and decide which one they observe from the context of the passage they are transloating. “Every translation is an interpretation!”>On Thursday, August 31, 2006, at 07:20AM, William Ross ><woundedegomusic at gmail.com> wrote:> >>Which usage fits this passage? What is the entity KOSMOS that “loves its>>own?” Would you see the usage to be equivalent to “humanity?”>> >>If so, are believers no longer part of humanity?> >I think you are belaboring a point of logical distinction here>which is not really relevant to usage of the word in the Johannine>context. From the perspective of the author, hO KOSMOS is the>world/humanity at large OUTSIDE of the intimate Johannine community;>the word is used in a more-or-less pejorative sense for “outsiders”>as the great majority of humankind who are not believers and who are>hostile to belief and believers. That is precisely why Jesus in this>passage can say to beievers that they are EN TWi KOSMWi, “in the>world” but are not EK TOU KOSMOU (where EK + gen. = “from” or>“belonging to”) — the believers are not “of this world” or>“belonging to the world.” The community of believers is conceived>here as an enclave that exists WITHIN humanity but that has set>itself off or been set off from humanity by belief and by relationship>to Jesus. This usage of KOSMOS depends upon an “insider’s) distinction>between “US” and “THEM.” “THEY” are “the world”; “WE” don’t really>belong to “THEM.” I think too that this NT distinction has its analogue>in the traditional OT distinction between Israel as a GOY QADOSH and>hA GOYIM, between a “holy nation” and “the nations.”> > >>—–Original Message—–>>From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org>>[mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Craig J>>Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:18 AM>>To: at lists.ibiblio.org>>Subject: Re: [] KOSMOS>> >>> Is John using two meanings for KOSMOS in this sentence as a>>> play on the word?>>> >>> What is the hater here? Is it a system? Humankind? Or is it>>> SPECIFICALLY “the people that adhere to this world’s system?”>>> >>> KJV:>>> John 15:19 If ye were of the world <2889>, the world <2889>>>> would love his>>> own: but because ye are not of the world <2889>, but I have>>> chosen you out of the world <2889>, therefore the world>>> <2889> hateth you.>>> >>> Can you see how I find “the world” to refer to a specific>>> subgroup of humanity in Paul/John?>>> >>> William Ross>>> VGB, Argentina>> >>EI EK TOU KOSMOU HTE hO KOSMOS AN TO IDION EFILEI hOTI DE EK TOU KOSMOU OUK>>ESTE ALL EGW EXELEXAMHN hUMAS EK TOU KOSMOU DIA TOUTO MISEI hUMAS hO KOSMOS>>(John 15:19)>> >>The usage of KOSMOS seems consistent throughout this verse, not two>>meanings, as I read it.>> >>Seems to fit in with what Harold said. If you take the disciples as the>>minority, and the world as the vast majority, the negative meaning only>>comes in by context, not by inherent meaning of KOSMOS.>> >>—>>Craig Johnson>>Brisbane, Australia>>Blog Experiment: http://bloggledegook.blogspot.com/> >>>—>> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>> >>—>> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/>> mailing list>> at lists.ibiblio.org>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/>> >> > > >Carl W. Conrad>Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)>1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243>cwconrad2 at mac.com>WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/>—> home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/— Carlton L. WinberyRetired Professor of ReligionLouisiana College318-448-6103winberycl at earthlink.net
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[] KOSMOS Craig J newsgroupstuff at gmail.com
Thu Aug 31 21:17:34 EDT 2006
[] KOSMOS [] KOSMOS Carlton Winbery wrote:> John 1:10 seems to me to be three distinct uses of KOSMOS.> > EN TWi KOSMWi HN, KAI hO KOSMOS DI’ AUTOU EGENETO, KAI hO KOSMOS > AUTON OUK EGNW.> > 1) alludes to him being part of humanity.> 2) the universe> 3) humanity apart from GodI don’t think such a strong and overly technical distinction is necessary. Astraight forward reading could make them all the same, as in the followingslight paraphrase:”He was in the world, and that world was made through him, and that worlddid not know him”I guess KOSMOS would then equate to something like ‘the mass of humanity’.I’m not sure why you have ‘humanity’ for 1 & 3, but need to change it to’the universe’ for 2 in between..?–Craig JohnsonBrisbane, AustraliaBlog Experiment: http://bloggledegook.blogspot.com/
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