Ladies and Gentlemen:
e.g. NASB: 7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” NIV: 7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” Greek: DOS MOI PEIN
Whilst the essence of the sentence remains the same, [Jesus asks for a drink], the way in which Jesus asks, transmits quite a different tone between the translations, at least to the English reader. The text is the same — there appear to be no variants. It is a straightforward aorist imperative.
None of my commentaries deal with this point. BDF (SS387) says that the imperative is not confined to commands but also requests/concessions Smyth (SS1835a) says something similar. Both fail to help me [much] in identifying the different flavours.
AT Robertson [yes Mr. FWS — he was promoted to Greek work due to the lack of tornados, and another desperate attempt to get my money’s worth from my purchase ;-)] page 947[c] is slightly more helpful but not a lot. I almost forgot Wallace (until about to SEND this email) who is the most useful and who acknowledges the problem. Page 488 he says how difficult it is to communicate tone in a written language. He gives the impression of trying to categorise ever so neatly the different uses — but I’m not sure he succeeds entirely.
So the question is, how does one identify correctly, the tone of an occurrence of the imperative? Indeed: Is it even possible? Does the verb form [aorist in this case] play a role? Is it simply a question of context? I got to wonder whether the response of the woman gives a clue. She uses AITEW [PWS…EMOU…AITEIS] but this can take a soft [ask] or a stern [demand] meaning…the context of the conversation as a whole implies a request rather than a somewhat brusque command…
What would be the “normal” polite way of asking for something? I believe that in several modern European languages, a simple imperative carries with it no negative tonal connotations when asking for something…same for NT Greek?
I’d be interested in your views…
Paschal greetings to you all…
Steve
Stephen Baldwin stbaldwi@hotmail.com
For all the effort undertaken to consult the Greek grammars, this really doesn’t seem to be a question about Greek grammar but about English translation. I wonder how the people over at B-Translation would deal with it. The problem with expressions of the imperative is that they are like euphemisms in that they are endeavors to soften the harshness of a command. I remember as a child just old enough to run chores for my betters being asked/told, “Wouldn’t you like to go fetch me a loaf of bread?” Having heard such polite commands often enough, I once replied, “No, I wouldn’t like to do it, but I’ll do it for your sake.”
We’ve had these discussions in this forum many times with regard to the third-person imperatives such as hAGIASQHTW TO ONOMA SOU, the question being raised along the lines of “Why are we asking for God’s permission for His name to be hallowed?” Well, of course we aren’t. It’s just quite simply a fact that “let” is used as an auxiliary in imperative expressions in English just as “lassen” in German, “laisser” in French, “sinere” in Latin, and ἀφίημι/ἀφίω [AFIHMI/AFIW] in ancient Greek.
Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Hi, Stephen,
One of my all time favorite imperatives is Archimedes:
δός μοι ποῦ στῶ και κινήσω τὴν γῆν. DOS MOI POU STW KAI KINHSW THN GHN.
He’s not literally asking for a place to stand. It’s really a future more-or-less vivid condition: “If I had a place to stand, I would move the world.” The imperative is not a request, polite or otherwise, but is a rhetorical devise to involve the hearer more vividly in the absurdity of the proposition. Wallace would call it the protastic pseudo-imperative.
We do it in English. “Give this guy fourteen runs and he is tough to beat.”
Mark L Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________ Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 9:03:52 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen:
e.g. NASB: 7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” NIV: 7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” Greek: DOS MOI PEIN
Whilst the essence of the sentence remains the same, [Jesus asks for a drink], the way in which Jesus asks, transmits quite a different tone between the translations, at least to the English reader. The text is the same — there appear to be no variants. It is a straightforward aorist imperative.
None of my commentaries deal with this point. BDF (SS387) says that the imperative is not confined to commands but also requests/concessions Smyth (SS1835a) says something similar. Both fail to help me [much] in identifying the different flavours.
AT Robertson [yes Mr. FWS — he was promoted to Greek work due to the lack of tornados, and another desperate attempt to get my money’s worth from my purchase ;-)] page 947[c] is slightly more helpful but not a lot. I almost forgot Wallace (until about to SEND this email) who is the most useful and who acknowledges the problem. Page 488 he says how difficult it is to communicate tone in a written language. He gives the impression of trying to categorise ever so neatly the different uses — but I’m not sure he succeeds entirely.
So the question is, how does one identify correctly, the tone of an occurrence of the imperative? Indeed: Is it even possible? Does the verb form [aorist in this case] play a role? Is it simply a question of context? I got to wonder whether the response of the woman gives a clue. She uses AITEW [PWS…EMOU…AITEIS] but this can take a soft [ask] or a stern [demand] meaning…the context of the conversation as a whole implies a request rather than a somewhat brusque command…
What would be the “normal” polite way of asking for something? I believe that in several modern European languages, a simple imperative carries with it no negative tonal connotations when asking for something…same for NT Greek?
I’d be interested in your views…
Paschal greetings to you all…
Steve
Stephen Baldwin stbaldwi@hotmail.com
Might be worthwhile to note that in Hebrew (if you consider this relevant), it is extremely common to use a simple command where we might use a more polite question form in English. It’s familiar, for sure, but it isn’t considered rude in the slightest. Was δός μοι a translation from Hebrew or Aramaic? Perhaps outside of B-Greek limitations, but it’s something to take into consideration. A Semitic underlying original dialogue could probably be assumed, if it causes problems in the Greek text itself.
Don’t need responses. I just wanted to throw that out there — off-topic though it may be.
Best regards, Jason Hare Rehovot, Israel ________________________________________ יהיו לרצון אמרי פי והגיון לבי לפניך, ה’ צורי וגואלי
Yesterday I sent my comment on this thread two times but it did not go through. I’ll try one more time and paste it here:
This is mainly a translation and cultural issue.
Granted that the text is a command, the translation point is one of politeness and cultural norms for making such a request.
When I first came to live in Africa for the purpose of helping to translate the Bible into a local language, I was surprised that people – even an inferior to a superior – routinely make commands like this one: “Give me water!” They never said: “Please.” There is no word for “Please!” in that language. Is there in Greek or Hebrew? I think the same applies here. Jesus said: “Give me something to drink.” It was not an affront and not impolite, but normal. (A similar question of politeness occurs in the well-known John 2:4).
Therefore, a literal translation like the NASB will carry over that cultural form into English, even though it violates English cultural norms, and therefore miscommunicates the tone of the original. NIV is a modified literal version. I am not sure whether “Will you give me a drink?” refers to water or other drinks. I think the CEV has the most polite command in English: “Would you please give me a drink of water?”
Iver Larsen
For all the effort undertaken to consult the Greek grammars, this really doesn’t seem to be a question about Greek grammar but about English translation. I wonder how the people over at B-Translation would deal with it. The problem with expressions of the imperative is that they are like euphemisms in that they are endeavors to soften the harshness of a command. I remember as a child just old enough to run chores for my betters being asked/told, “Wouldn’t you like to go fetch me a loaf of bread?” Having heard such polite commands often enough, I once replied, “No, I wouldn’t like to do it, but I’ll do it for your sake.”
We’ve had these discussions in this forum many times with regard to the third-person imperatives such as hAGIASQHTW TO ONOMA SOU, the question being raised along the lines of “Why are we asking for God’s permission for His name to be hallowed?” Well, of course we aren’t. It’s just quite simply a fact that “let” is used as an auxiliary in imperative expressions in English just as “lassen” in German, “laisser” in French, “sinere” in Latin, and ἀφίημι/ἀφίω [AFIHMI/AFIW] in ancient Greek.
Carl W. Conrad Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Hi, Stephen,
One of my all time favorite imperatives is Archimedes:
δός μοι ποῦ στῶ και κινήσω τὴν γῆν. DOS MOI POU STW KAI KINHSW THN GHN.
He’s not literally asking for a place to stand. It’s really a future more-or-less vivid condition: “If I had a place to stand, I would move the world.” The imperative is not a request, polite or otherwise, but is a rhetorical devise to involve the hearer more vividly in the absurdity of the proposition. Wallace would call it the protastic pseudo-imperative.
We do it in English. “Give this guy fourteen runs and he is tough to beat.”
Mark L Φωσφορος
FWSFOROS MARKOS
________________________________ Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 9:03:52 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen:
e.g. NASB: 7There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” NIV: 7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?” Greek: DOS MOI PEIN
Whilst the essence of the sentence remains the same, [Jesus asks for a drink], the way in which Jesus asks, transmits quite a different tone between the translations, at least to the English reader. The text is the same — there appear to be no variants. It is a straightforward aorist imperative.
None of my commentaries deal with this point. BDF (SS387) says that the imperative is not confined to commands but also requests/concessions Smyth (SS1835a) says something similar. Both fail to help me [much] in identifying the different flavours.
AT Robertson [yes Mr. FWS — he was promoted to Greek work due to the lack of tornados, and another desperate attempt to get my money’s worth from my purchase ;-)] page 947[c] is slightly more helpful but not a lot. I almost forgot Wallace (until about to SEND this email) who is the most useful and who acknowledges the problem. Page 488 he says how difficult it is to communicate tone in a written language. He gives the impression of trying to categorise ever so neatly the different uses — but I’m not sure he succeeds entirely.
So the question is, how does one identify correctly, the tone of an occurrence of the imperative? Indeed: Is it even possible? Does the verb form [aorist in this case] play a role? Is it simply a question of context? I got to wonder whether the response of the woman gives a clue. She uses AITEW [PWS…EMOU…AITEIS] but this can take a soft [ask] or a stern [demand] meaning…the context of the conversation as a whole implies a request rather than a somewhat brusque command…
What would be the “normal” polite way of asking for something? I believe that in several modern European languages, a simple imperative carries with it no negative tonal connotations when asking for something…same for NT Greek?
I’d be interested in your views…
Paschal greetings to you all…
Steve
Stephen Baldwin stbaldwi@hotmail.com
Might be worthwhile to note that in Hebrew (if you consider this relevant), it is extremely common to use a simple command where we might use a more polite question form in English. It’s familiar, for sure, but it isn’t considered rude in the slightest. Was δός μοι a translation from Hebrew or Aramaic? Perhaps outside of B-Greek limitations, but it’s something to take into consideration. A Semitic underlying original dialogue could probably be assumed, if it causes problems in the Greek text itself.
Don’t need responses. I just wanted to throw that out there — off-topic though it may be.
Best regards, Jason Hare Rehovot, Israel ________________________________________ יהיו לרצון אמרי פי והגיון לבי לפניך, ה’ צורי וגואלי
Yesterday I sent my comment on this thread two times but it did not go through. I’ll try one more time and paste it here:
This is mainly a translation and cultural issue.
Granted that the text is a command, the translation point is one of politeness and cultural norms for making such a request.
When I first came to live in Africa for the purpose of helping to translate the Bible into a local language, I was surprised that people – even an inferior to a superior – routinely make commands like this one: “Give me water!” They never said: “Please.” There is no word for “Please!” in that language. Is there in Greek or Hebrew? I think the same applies here. Jesus said: “Give me something to drink.” It was not an affront and not impolite, but normal. (A similar question of politeness occurs in the well-known John 2:4).
Therefore, a literal translation like the NASB will carry over that cultural form into English, even though it violates English cultural norms, and therefore miscommunicates the tone of the original. NIV is a modified literal version. I am not sure whether “Will you give me a drink?” refers to water or other drinks. I think the CEV has the most polite command in English: “Would you please give me a drink of water?”
Iver Larsen