Colossians 1:15

[] Colossians 1:15 oscar_villa at edsamail.com.ph oscar_villa at edsamail.com.ph
Thu Jul 31 03:45:29 EDT 2003

[] SFWE in the Iliad 1.8 [] Colossians 1:15 I was wondering if anyone could give me help with the following in understanding Colossians 1:151) TOU QEOU TOU AORATOU the use of the genitive as modifying EIKWN2) PASHS KTISEWS in the genititve as modifying PRWTOTOKOS3) anything else you might have (EIKWN, PRWTOTOKOS)

[] SFWE in the Iliad 1.8[] Colossians 1:15

[] Colossians 1:15 Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Thu Jul 31 08:18:41 EDT 2003

[] Colossians 1:15 [] Heb 2:10 – AGAGONTA At 3:45 PM +0800 7/31/03, oscar_villa at edsamail.com.ph wrote:>I was wondering if anyone could give me help with the following in>understanding Colossians 1:15>1) TOU QEOU TOU AORATOU the use of the genitive as modifying EIKWN>2) PASHS KTISEWS in the genititve as modifying PRWTOTOKOS>3) anything else you might have (EIKWN, PRWTOTOKOS)Text: 1:13 hOS ERRUSATO hHMAS EK THS EXOUSIAS TOU SKOTOUS KAI METESTHSENEIS THN BASILEIAN TOU hUIOU THS AGAPHS AUTOU, 14 EN hWi ECOMEN THNAPOLUTRWSIN, THN AFESIN TWN hAMARTIWN; 15 hOS ESTIN EIKWN TOU QEOU TOUAORATOU, PRWTOTOKOS PASHS KTISEWS, 16 hOTI EN AUTWi EKTISQH TA PANTA …(1) The antecedent of hOS in verse 15 is TOU hUIOU THS AGAPHS AUTOU back inverse 13, i.e. Jesus Christ. Verse 15 says that he (Jesus Christ) is theEIKWN, the “image” of God who is invisible; this is somewhat similar to thenotion expressed in John 1:18, that although nobody has ever seen God, theincarnate Logos has somehow allowed humanity to discern God through Christ:Christ is what can be seen and discerned of the God who cannot be seen anddiscerned directly.The genitive form of TOU QEOU TOU AORATOU is simple adnominal or adjectivalor possessive genitive: WHOSE image? image of the invisible God!(2) PASHS KTISEWS is subject to alternative interpretations depending onthe sense one assigns to PRWTOTOKOS. (a) if PRWTOTOKOS is understood tomean “first-born,” then PASHS KTISEWS will be a “partitive” genitive:Christ is the very first item of all creation, the very first one created;(b) PRWTOTOKOS may be understood with emphasis upon the superlative aspectof the element PRWTO-, “far before” or simply “prior to”; in that casePASHS KTISEWS will be an “ablatival” genitive: “Christ has existence priorto all that is created.””Anything else you might have” may readily give scope to endlessdiscussion. I think it is sufficient to say that (a) both these nouns,EIKWN and PRWTOTOKOS, are heavily charged with potential implications thathave been and can be developed in different interpretations, and (b)PRWTOTOKOS, even more than EIKWN, is open to such divergent interpretationsthat it is perilous to endeavor to pinpoint precisely and definitively thesense intended by the author. I say that precisely because of manydiscussions, some of them quite heated, that have been carried on in thisforum: a search and perusal of our archives for PRWTOTOKOS will, I think,bear out what I am saying.– Carl W. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.eduWWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

[] Colossians 1:15[] Heb 2:10 – AGAGONTA

[] Colossians 1:15 Gary Hedrick gary at cjf.org
Wed Sep 29 02:02:37 EDT 2004

[] Re: EPAGW [] Colossians 1:15 Fellow listers, we’re trying to decide here if the best translationof prototokos paseis ktiseos in Col. 1:15 is “firstborn over all creation”or “firstborn of all creation.” The NIV and NKJV have “over all creation,”but is this really what the text says? Do you think paseis is best understood here as a genitive ofcomparison? The issue, of course, is whether Jesus was a created being, thebeginning of creation. Any thoughts?Dr. Gary HedrickCJF Ministries611 BroadwaySan Antonio, TX 78215 USAPhone 210-226-1075, Ext. 115 (w/ voice mail)Private Line 210-558-3404 (no voice mail)Cell 210-389-2618 (w/ voice mail)Fax 210-690-8421gary at cjf.org or gmhedrick at sbcglobal.net —–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org[mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Frances HardySent: Monday, September 20, 2004 6:18 PMTo: at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: [] AccentsHi, I haven’t been following the thread on accents, but since we’re all talkingabout it, are there any articles that people could point me to outlining theusage of accents in an easy to understand fashion? I’m doing first yearGreek, and I’m told that in second year we will be getting marked on our useof accents. I’m sure we’ll have it explained to us, but I’m starting to getto the point where there are just to many whys. ThanksFrances— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

[] Re: EPAGW[] Colossians 1:15

[] Colossians 1:15 Arie Dirkzwager dirkzwager at pandora.be
Wed Sep 29 03:52:45 EDT 2004

[] Colossians 1:15 [] Rife: A Beginning Greek Book Gary,This question is one of interpretation. Genitives can conceal various sortsof relationships.So it is not the Greek text that decides what to translate.You have the surrounding verses, you have other “firstborn-texts” (e.g. Rev1: 5). You should decide if those firstborn-texts are speaking about thesame “aspect” of Christ as your text in Col.And do not forget Ps 89: 28 and 38 (the last verse as related to Rev 1: 5).Whether Jesus was a created being, is in my opinion a question that cannotbe settled with your verse alone.So the greater part of your questions is laying beyond the scope of thislist – in my opinion.ArieDr. A. DirkzwagerHoeselt, Belgiume-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be—– Oorspronkelijk bericht —–Van: “Gary Hedrick” <gary at cjf.org>Aan: < at lists.ibiblio.org>Verzonden: woensdag 29 september 2004 8:02Onderwerp: RE: [] Colossians 1:15Fellow listers, we’re trying to decide here if the best translationof prototokos paseis ktiseos in Col. 1:15 is “firstborn over all creation”or “firstborn of all creation.” The NIV and NKJV have “over all creation,”but is this really what the text says?Do you think paseis is best understood here as a genitive ofcomparison? The issue, of course, is whether Jesus was a created being, thebeginning of creation. Any thoughts?Dr. Gary HedrickCJF Ministries611 BroadwaySan Antonio, TX 78215 USAPhone 210-226-1075, Ext. 115 (w/ voice mail)Private Line 210-558-3404 (no voice mail)Cell 210-389-2618 (w/ voice mail)Fax 210-690-8421gary at cjf.org or gmhedrick at sbcglobal.net—–Original Message—–From: -bounces at lists.ibiblio.org[mailto:-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Frances HardySent: Monday, September 20, 2004 6:18 PMTo: at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: [] AccentsHi,I haven’t been following the thread on accents, but since we’re all talkingabout it, are there any articles that people could point me to outlining theusage of accents in an easy to understand fashion? I’m doing first yearGreek, and I’m told that in second year we will be getting marked on our useof accents. I’m sure we’ll have it explained to us, but I’m starting to getto the point where there are just to many whys.ThanksFrances— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/— home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/ mailing list at lists.ibiblio.orghttp://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/

[] Colossians 1:15[] Rife: A Beginning Greek Book

[] Colossians 1:15 dhoxworth at charter.net dhoxworth at charter.net
Wed Sep 29 11:14:16 EDT 2004

[] Machen supplements/Koine composition [] Colossians 1:15 ><Arie>>This question is one of interpretation…So it is not the Greek text that decides what to translate…So the greater part of your questions is laying beyond the scope of this list – in my opinion.<doug>i would venture to say that dr. conrad would probably concur with this.incidentally, this would probably be a question more appropriate for the bible translation list, since that’s the question that gary asked (“we’re trying to decide here if the best translation…”). and there was quite an extensive discussion on the b-trans list i think around a year ago about the translation of PRWTOTOKOS in Col 1:15. unfortunately, i don’t believe that their archives are searchable, so i cannot even narrow it down for you. anyone else here remember (iver larson? peter kirk?)?Doug HoxworthLuther Rice Seminary

[] Machen supplements/Koine composition[] Colossians 1:15