Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Carl ω. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Sep 25 12:23:52 εδτ 2002
Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) accusative indirect objects? NA27 : ουκ ηδειτε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει ειναι MED05, ω : ουκ οιδατε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι.Chabert: ειναι is put forward in D05 at the end of the clause; thisplacement implies an existential sense of ειναι; in that case, what reasonis there not to consider τοισ a masculine pronoun referring to the personsdesignated in v 46,i.e. the διδασκαλοι?– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)accusative indirect objects?
Wed Sep 25 12:23:44 εδτ 2002
Lk 2:42: age of Jesus in the Temple (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) D05 :φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν και DOXANNA27: φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν εθνων και DOXANChabert: What justification is there for the usual translation: “a lightfor revelation to the Gentiles” (e.g. νετ), with genitive εθνων regarded asa dative of interest?– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:42: age of Jesus in the Temple (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)
Wed Sep 25 20:04:58 εδτ 2002
Lk 2:32 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Uses of γαρ For George Somsel:From: Polycarp66 at aol.comDate: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:01:49 εδτ>In a message dated 9/25/2002 12:26:57 πμ Eastern Daylight Time,>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> >>NA27 : ουκ ηδειτε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει ειναι με>>D05, ω : ουκ οιδατε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι.>> >>Chabert: ειναι is put forward in D05 at the end of the clause; this>>placement implies an existential sense of ειναι; in that case, what reason>>is there not to consider τοισ a masculine pronoun referring to the persons>>designated in v 46,i.e. the διδασκαλοι?>> > > >ι may be “putting my foot in it” here, but ι think ι will agree with you>that τοισ would seem to refer to διδασκαλων in v 46 whether or not one>concedes that ειναι has an existential sense. When reference is made to>the temple it is εν TWi hIERWi, a singular. τοισ, however, is plural as>is διδασκαλων. > >Nevertheless, ι don’t see how an existential sense can be derived from the>passage regardless of whether one accepts ξ. Bezae’s reading or that of>NA27. What we have is a phrase consisting of ειναι με + εν + τοισ>[διδασκαλοισ]. This would simply indicate where he would be found.> >gfsomsel
Lk 2:32 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)Uses of γαρ
Thu Sep 26 07:13:06 εδτ 2002
Lk 2:32 φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν (Luke in Codex Bezae) Lk 2:32 φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν (Luke in Codex Bezae) Englished and forwarded for Mme Chabert d’Hyères:Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:49:02 +0000From: “σ Chabert d’Hyères” <laodicy at ifrance.com>Reply to George Somsel>NA27 : ουκ ηδειτε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει ειναι με>>D05, ω : ουκ οιδατε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι.>ι may be “putting my foot in it” here, but ι think ι will agree with you>that τοισ would seem to refer to διδασκαλων in v 46 whether or not one>concedes that ειναι has an existential sense.Then the question to be asked is: Why the choice of τοισ in preference toanother pronoun?> When reference is made to the temple it is εν TWi hIERWi, a singular.Precisely what are you alluding to?Thanks in advance,Sylvie Chabert d’Hyères
Lk 2:32 φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν (Luke in Codex Bezae)Lk 2:32 φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν (Luke in Codex Bezae)
Thu Sep 26 12:43:57 εδτ 2002
Mark 2:28 (κυριοσ) διακον– For George Somsel:In a message dated 9/26/2002 7:14:16 αμ Eastern Daylight Time,cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:>Reply to George Somsel>>NA27 : ουκ ηδειτε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει ειναι με>>>D05, ω : ουκ οιδατε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι.> >>ι may be “putting my foot in it” here, but ι think ι will agree with you>>that τοισ would seem to refer to διδασκαλων in v 46 whether or not one>>concedes that ειναι has an existential sense.> >Then the question to be asked is: Why the choice of τοισ in preference to>another pronoun?> >> When reference is made to the temple it is εν TWi hIERWi, a singular.> >Precisely what are you alluding to?> The usual translation (in English) for Lk 2.49 is “ι must be in my Father’shouse” or “ι must be about my Father’s business.” Since εν TWi hIERWi issingular, τοισ being plural would seem to exclude that understanding. “MyFather’s business [νασβ footnote “affairs”] would be a possibility. On theother hand, it could also refer to των διδασκαλων in v. 46 which would thenyield “ι must be among my father’s teachers” (not those who teach God, butthose who teach for God).gfsomsel
Mark 2:28 (κυριοσ)διακον–
Thu Sep 26 16:09:34 εδτ 2002
διακον– ] διακον– At 10:10 αμ -0400 9/26/02, Polycarp66 at aol.com wrote:>In a message dated 9/26/2002 7:14:16 αμ Eastern Daylight Time,>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu writes:> >>Reply to George Somsel>>>NA27 : ουκ ηδειτε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει ειναι με>>>>D05, ω : ουκ οιδατε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι.>> >>>ι may be “putting my foot in it” here, but ι think ι will agree with you>>>that τοισ would seem to refer to διδασκαλων in v 46 whether or not one>>>concedes that ειναι has an existential sense.>> >>Then the question to be asked is: Why the choice of τοισ in preference to>>another pronoun?>> >>> When reference is made to the temple it is εν TWi hIERWi, a singular.>> >>Precisely what are you alluding to?>> > > >The usual translation (in English) for Lk 2.49 is “ι must be in my>Father’s house” or “ι must be about my Father’s business.” Since εν TWi>hIERWi is singular, τοισ being plural would seem to exclude that>understanding. “My Father’s business [νασβ footnote “affairs”] would be a>possibility. On the other hand, it could also refer to των διδασκαλων in>v. 46 which would then yield “ι must be among my father’s teachers” (not>those who teach God, but those who teach for God).Frankly ι don’t believe that is really a viable option. The neuter singularor plural article with a genitive is so common in the sense “things havingto do with” or “matters concerning” that ι can’t but think that is by farthe most likely sense here, rather than that διδασκαλοι should be impliedfrom the earlier verse. And according to βδαγ on substantive usage of theneuter plural: EMOSg. The art. w. the gen. foll. denotes a relation of kinship,ownership, or dependence: … –το, τα τινοσ someone’s things, affairs,circumstances (Thu. 4, 83 τα του αρριβαιου; Parthenius 1, 6; Appian, Syr.16 §67 τα ρωμαιων) τα του θεου, των ανθρωπων Mt 16:23; 22:21; {p. 689} Mk8:33; cp. 1 Cor 2:11. τα θσ σαρκοσ, του πνευματοσ Ro 8:5; cp. 14:19; 1 Cor7:33f; 13:11. τα hUMWN 2 Cor 12:14. τα θσ ασθενειασ μου 11:30. τα τουνομου what the law requires Ro 2:14. το θσ συκησ what has been done to thefig tree Mt 21:21; cp. 8:33. τα hEAUTHS its own advantage 1 Cor 13:5; cp.Phil 2:4, 21. το θσ παροιμιασ what the proverb says 2 Pt 2:22 (Pla.,Theaet. 183e το του hOMHROU; Menand., Dyscolus 633 το του λογου). εν τοιστου πατροσ μου in my Father’s house (so Field, Notes 50-56; Goodsp. Probs.81-83; difft., ‘interests’, PTemple, ξβθ 1, ’39, 342-52.-In contrast to theother synoptists, Luke does not elsewhere show Jesus ‘at home’.) Lk 2:49(Lysias 12, 12 εισ τα του αδελφου v; Theocr. 2, 76 τα λυκωνοσ; pap inMayser ιι [1926] p. 8; POxy 523, 3 [ιι αδ] an invitation to a dinner εντοισ κλαυδιου σαραπιωνοσ; PTebt 316 ιι, 23 [99 αδ] εν τοισ παταμωνοσ; Esth7:9; Job 18:19; Jos., Ant. 16, 302. Of the temple of a god Jos., ξ. Ap. 1,118 εν τοισ του διοσ). Mt 20:15 is classified here by WHatch, ατρ 26, ‘44,250-53; s. also εμοσ b.– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
διακον-] διακον–
Fri Sep 27 06:28:20 εδτ 2002
Matthew 21:28 and 32 Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Englished and forwarded to βγ for Mme Chabert:At 4:09 πμ -0400 9/26/02, Carl ω. Conrad wrote:> > Frankly ι don’t believe that is really a viable option. The neuter singular> or plural article with a genitive is so common in the sense “things having> to do with” or “matters concerning” that ι can’t but think that is by far> the most likely sense here, rather than that διδασκαλοι should be implied> from the earlier verse. And according to βδαγ on substantive usage of the> neuter plural: εμοσ> > εν τοισ του πατροσ μου in my Father’s house (so Field, Notes 50-56; Goodsp.Probs. 81-83; difft., ‘interests’, PTemple, ξβθ 1, ’39, 342-52.-In contrastto the other synoptists, Luke does not elsewhere show Jesus ‘at home’.) Lk2:49 POxy 523, 3 [ιι αδ] an invitation to a dinner εν τοισ κλαυδιουσαραπιωνοσ; PTebt 316 ιι, 23 [99 αδ] εν τοισ παταμωνοσ; Esth 7:9; Job18:19; Jos., Ant. 16, 302. Of the temple of a god Jos., ξ. Ap. 1,> 118 εν τοισ του διοσ).Carl,Can’t one rebut that with these citations from Alexander’s Dictionary whichindicates its sources only incompletely:- Sophocle, εν δε τοισ εγω, “and ι am among those …”- εν τινι ειναι, “to be in someone’s power”- εν τοισ μαλιστα, “among those who are most so,” (Plato Ep 358b or Plut,Alc 24 ) ?Sylvie Chabert d’Hyères
Matthew 21:28 and 32Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)
Fri Sep 27 06:36:50 εδτ 2002
Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) Lk 2:32 φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν (Luke in Codex Bezae) At 6:28 αμ -0400 9/27/02, Carl ω. Conrad wrote:>Englished and forwarded to βγ for Mme Chabert:> >At 4:09 πμ -0400 9/26/02, Carl ω. Conrad wrote:>> >> Frankly ι don’t believe that is really a viable option. The neuter singular>> or plural article with a genitive is so common in the sense “things having>> to do with” or “matters concerning” that ι can’t but think that is by far>> the most likely sense here, rather than that διδασκαλοι should be implied>> from the earlier verse. And according to βδαγ on substantive usage of the>> neuter plural: εμοσ>> > >> εν τοισ του πατροσ μου in my Father’s house (so Field, Notes 50-56; Goodsp.>Probs. 81-83; difft., ‘interests’, PTemple, ξβθ 1, ’39, 342-52.-In contrast>to the other synoptists, Luke does not elsewhere show Jesus ‘at home’.) Lk>2:49 POxy 523, 3 [ιι αδ] an invitation to a dinner εν τοισ κλαυδιου>σαραπιωνοσ; PTebt 316 ιι, 23 [99 αδ] εν τοισ παταμωνοσ; Esth 7:9; Job>18:19; Jos., Ant. 16, 302. Of the temple of a god Jos., ξ. Ap. 1,>> 118 εν τοισ του διοσ).> >Carl,> >Can’t one rebut that with these citations from Alexander’s Dictionary>which indicates its sources only incompletely:> >– Sophocle, εν δε τοισ εγω, “and ι am among those …”>– εν τινι ειναι, “to be in someone’s power”>– εν τοισ μαλιστα, “among those who are most so,” (Plato Ep 358b or Plut,>Alc 24 ) ?> >Sylvie Chabert d’Hyèresι don’t really think so; the citation from Sophocles is clearly instancesof the article in the archaic demonstrative function; εν τινι ειναι isdifferent in that it requires the name of the person holding power; εν τοισμαλιστα comes closest, but it could only be used with a clearly implicitadjective which would be governed by μαλιστα. ι should note that ι alsoagree with what George Somsel noted earlier: that ειναι in the D05 readinghere>>>NA27 : ουκ ηδειτε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει ειναι με>>>D05, ω : ουκ οιδατε hOTI εν τοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι.can’t really be existential since it’s a δει + acc. + inf. construction,and that is so whether ειναι is in the final position of the clause or not.– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)Lk 2:32 φωσ εισ αποκαλυυιν (Luke in Codex Bezae)
Fri Sep 27 16:03:25 εδτ 2002
διακον– Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) For “σ Chabert d’Hyères” <laodicy at ifrance.com>:εν τοισ :Is this a jeu d’esprit, a rabbinical pun or a literary jest?Carl,Flavius Josephus had a sense of humor which one may hope to findmeaningful. Upon pondering the example which you had cited:εν τοισ του διοσ (Contra Apionem 1,118)ι checked more closely to see what it was about.As it turns out, the author of ξοντρα απιονεμ, when speaking of the goldencolumn of the temple of Tyre as τον εν τοισ του διοσ, was making a “double”allusion:(1) to the Phoenician historian named διοσ, about whom he was speaking inthe preceding lines, particularly at the end of v. 115: διοσ μεν hOUTW περιτων προειῥμενων;(2) and to what Dios himself had previously mentioned while speaking of thetemple of ολυμπιου διοσ noted two lines earlier, and by Hiram at Tyre.You must admit that it’s rather “cute”, isn’t it? In line 118, διοσ refersunquestionably, if not to both, then at least to one of the two or else toone by means of the other; ι conclude that εν τοισ indicates one or moreelements of an account which the writer leaves to the reader the task ofidentifying. It is some sort of literary allusion.Withe reference to Lk 2:49, εν τοισ would refer to the heavenly Father’sacquaintances, since Jesus answered his parents, who had been looking forhim among their kinsmen and acquaintainces (εν τοισ συγγενευσιν και εν τοισγνωστοισ, λκ 2:44), “Dont’ you know that ι must be among my Father’s (εντοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι) [acquaintances] (in this instance thepersons named in v. 46).Sylvie Chabert d’Hyereshttp://bezae.ifrance.com
διακον-Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)
Fri Sep 27 16:24:29 εδτ 2002
Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue) The implied verb in Eph 2:8 At 4:03 πμ -0400 9/27/02, Carl ω. Conrad wrote:>For “σ Chabert d’Hyères” <laodicy at ifrance.com>:> >εν τοισ :> >Is this a jeu d’esprit, a rabbinical pun or a literary jest?> >Carl,> >Flavius Josephus had a sense of humor which one may hope to find>meaningful. Upon pondering the example which you had cited:> >εν τοισ του διοσ (Contra Apionem 1,118)> >ι checked more closely to see what it was about.> >As it turns out, the author of ξοντρα απιονεμ, when speaking of the golden>column of the temple of Tyre as τον εν τοισ του διοσ, was making a “double”>allusion:> >(1) to the Phoenician historian named διοσ, about whom he was speaking in>the preceding lines, particularly at the end of v. 115: διοσ μεν hOUTW περι>των προειῥμενων;> >(2) and to what Dios himself had previously mentioned while speaking of the>temple of ολυμπιου διοσ noted two lines earlier, and by Hiram at Tyre.ι‘m sorry, Sylvie; ι really question that the sort of “jeu d’esprit” youare suggesting is present in that phrase εν τοισ του διοσ: διοσ in thatphrase can only be the genitive of the name of ζευσ; ι don’t think there’sany allusion to the historian named διοσ–that would have to have been εντοισ του διου. You may think that this is too close to be a coincidence,but ι don’t think it’s any more than a coincidence.>You must admit that it’s rather “cute”, isn’t it? In line 118, διοσ refers>unquestionably, if not to both, then at least to one of the two or else to>one by means of the other; ι conclude that εν τοισ indicates one or more>elements of an account which the writer leaves to the reader the task of>identifying. It is some sort of literary allusion.> >Withe reference to Lk 2:49, εν τοισ would refer to the heavenly Father’s>acquaintances, since Jesus answered his parents, who had been looking for>him among their kinsmen and acquaintainces (εν τοισ συγγενευσιν και εν τοισ>γνωστοισ, λκ 2:44), “Dont’ you know that ι must be among my Father’s (εν>τοισ του πατροσ μου δει με ειναι) [acquaintances] (in this instance the>persons named in v. 46).No, ι still don’t think that the τοισ of εν τοισ του πατροσ μου can referback to the γνωστοι; if the τοισ is not neuter plural referring to”concerns” (“business” as it has traditionally been translated in English),then the only alternative ι can conceive is that, as per the example you’vecited, εν τοισ του διοσ, εν τοισ του πατροσ μου may conceivably mean, “inmy father’s [house].”– Carl ω. ConradDepartment of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, νξ 28714/(828) 675-4243cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu ορ cwconrad at ioa.comWWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
Lk 2:49 εν τοισ … (Luke in Codex Bezae issue)The implied verb in Eph 2:8