[bible passage=”Mark 13:26″]
Matthew and Luke: META DUNAMEWS KAI DOXES POLLES
Mark: META DUNAMEWS POLLES KAI DOXES
We have three synoptic passages: Mathew 24:30, Mark 13:26 and Luke 21:27
using the adjective POLLES. Matthew and Luke use the adjective after DOXES,
while Mark uses it after DUNAMEWS. Harmonizing the text would make it: META
DUNAMEWS POLLES KAI DOXES POLLES.
My question: would the adjective in both texts modify both nouns? Should we
translate both texts with: with great power and great glory?
Abraços,
Pastor
Fridolin Janzen
Rua 60, 292
CAMPO GRANDE, MS
79104-360 Brasil
55-67-3363-1999
55-67-8458-8643
—
“META DUNAMEWS KAI DOXES POLLES”
Abracos,
To say I am very new is an understatement, however, I think the answer to your question on harmonization Is yes, but I am only making that guess because in the Byzantine MT all a match, but in WH the passage is as you have written.
Hopefully I can understand why from others here who would know.
In Christ,
Dean Poulos
Hello Pastor Fridolin,
I most certainly can. May I beg your patience sir, as I am away from my computer now but later in the evening, I will send the links to the Byzantine Textform.
Also, please excuse my ignorance in first addressing you as “Abracos,” which (since I can now see the entire email) realized it the word simply meant regards.
Thank you and God bless.
In Christ,
Dean Poulos
c: 617-510-0443
Sent from my PDA, please excuse brevity and any typos. Thank You.
To answer your question: Yes, I think POLLHS modifies both nouns in both texts.
You can think of the underlying form as META DUNAMEWS POLLHS KAI DOXHS POLLHS.
However, ellipsis is very common in Greek, so one of these would normally be
elided in the surface form. Theoretically, you could elide any of the two, but I
think it is more common in Greek to elide the first one, which gives you the
Matthew and Luke order.
There are no textual variants in terms of order (D changed the genitive
prepositional phrase to a dative phrase in Luke) and the Byzantine text is not
different.
As far as translation goes, it depends on the language. In English, the normal
order in translation for both phrases if the adjective is to modify both nouns
would be: with/in great power and glory. But you can have the other order
without much difference in meaning (DUNAMIS is powerful with or without “great”)
or you could have “great” in both places. However, that would put more emphasis
on “great” than the Greek implies. In my language, POLLHS would be translated by
different adjectives, depending on the noun it modifies. For DUNAMIS, we would
say “big” and for DOXA we would say “much”. I translated all three as “with
power and much glory,” but could easily have done it differently without any
significant difference in meaning.
And it depends on the type of translation. Bible translation is traditionally
very literal and tends to keep the order of the Greek words – if it can possibly
make sense in English – without much focus on whether the translation is clear
or natural. But all of that has to do with translation theory, rather than
Greek.
Iver Larsen
—– Original Message —–
Sent: 9. januar 2011 14:16
Matthew and Luke: META DUNAMEWS KAI DOXES POLLES
Mark: META DUNAMEWS POLLES KAI DOXES
We have three synoptic passages: Mathew 24:30, Mark 13:26 and Luke 21:27
using the adjective POLLES. Matthew and Luke use the adjective after DOXES,
while Mark uses it after DUNAMEWS. Harmonizing the text would make it: META
DUNAMEWS POLLES KAI DOXES POLLES.
My question: would the adjective in both texts modify both nouns? Should we
translate both texts with: with great power and great glory?
Abraços,
Pastor
Fridolin Janzen
Rua 60, 292
CAMPO GRANDE, MS
79104-360 Brasil
55-67-3363-1999
55-67-8458-8643
—
“META DUNAMEWS KAI DOXES POLLES”
Abracos,
To say I am very new is an understatement, however, I think the answer to your question on harmonization Is yes, but I am only making that guess because in the Byzantine MT all a match, but in WH the passage is as you have written.
Hopefully I can understand why from others here who would know.
In Christ,
Dean Poulos
Hello Pastor Fridolin,
I most certainly can. May I beg your patience sir, as I am away from my computer now but later in the evening, I will send the links to the Byzantine Textform.
Also, please excuse my ignorance in first addressing you as “Abracos,” which (since I can now see the entire email) realized it the word simply meant regards.
Thank you and God bless.
In Christ,
Dean Poulos
c: 617-510-0443
Sent from my PDA, please excuse brevity and any typos. Thank You.
To answer your question: Yes, I think POLLHS modifies both nouns in both texts.
You can think of the underlying form as META DUNAMEWS POLLHS KAI DOXHS POLLHS.
However, ellipsis is very common in Greek, so one of these would normally be
elided in the surface form. Theoretically, you could elide any of the two, but I
think it is more common in Greek to elide the first one, which gives you the
Matthew and Luke order.
There are no textual variants in terms of order (D changed the genitive
prepositional phrase to a dative phrase in Luke) and the Byzantine text is not
different.
As far as translation goes, it depends on the language. In English, the normal
order in translation for both phrases if the adjective is to modify both nouns
would be: with/in great power and glory. But you can have the other order
without much difference in meaning (DUNAMIS is powerful with or without “great”)
or you could have “great” in both places. However, that would put more emphasis
on “great” than the Greek implies. In my language, POLLHS would be translated by
different adjectives, depending on the noun it modifies. For DUNAMIS, we would
say “big” and for DOXA we would say “much”. I translated all three as “with
power and much glory,” but could easily have done it differently without any
significant difference in meaning.
And it depends on the type of translation. Bible translation is traditionally
very literal and tends to keep the order of the Greek words – if it can possibly
make sense in English – without much focus on whether the translation is clear
or natural. But all of that has to do with translation theory, rather than
Greek.
Iver Larsen
—– Original Message —–
Sent: 9. januar 2011 14:16
Matthew and Luke: META DUNAMEWS KAI DOXES POLLES
Mark: META DUNAMEWS POLLES KAI DOXES
We have three synoptic passages: Mathew 24:30, Mark 13:26 and Luke 21:27
using the adjective POLLES. Matthew and Luke use the adjective after DOXES,
while Mark uses it after DUNAMEWS. Harmonizing the text would make it: META
DUNAMEWS POLLES KAI DOXES POLLES.
My question: would the adjective in both texts modify both nouns? Should we
translate both texts with: with great power and great glory?
Abraços,
Pastor
Fridolin Janzen
Rua 60, 292
CAMPO GRANDE, MS
79104-360 Brasil
55-67-3363-1999
55-67-8458-8643
—