Mark 8:12 Maurice A. O’Sullivan mauros at iol.ie
Wed Jan 23 11:04:56 EST 2002
Greek word in the Passover? Greek word in the Passover? Erik:I see Trevor has already given you the basic “steer” on this — it is indeed a “Hebraism”, and inZerwick, Maximilian S.J. Biblical Greek: Illustrated by Examples. English edn. Adapted from the fourth Latin edn. By Joseph Smith S.J. Rome, 1963.s.400 deals with this topic, and Mk. 8:12 is the first example chosen by the author for illustration.The section reads:” In addition to its use in conditional clauses, whether ‘real’ or ‘unreal’ or ‘potential’ EI is used as a Hebraism in emphatic negation in the form of an oath. The conditional form is explained by the ellipse of an imprecatory formula ‘ ( May God do thus and thus to me ) if ………AMHN LEGW hUMIN, EI DOQHSETAI TH GENEA TAUTH SHMEION (Mk. 8:12)That this formula was intelligible Greek is suggested by 3 Kg. 1:52 where the Greek hasEI PESEITAI for ‘shall not fall’ though the Hebrew is not so expressed.Thus EI introduces a negative oath ( ‘certainly _not_ ) to which the affirmative ( not found in the NT ) would thus be EI MH …. ( Hebrew IM LO ) e.g 3 Kg. 21:23…. EAN DE POLEMHSWMEN AUTOUS KAT’ EUQU, EI MH KRATAIWSOMEN UPER AUTOUS ‘ surely we shall be stronger than they ‘ “Hope this is of help to you.I might add that this book by Zerwick is best used in conjunction with:Zerwick, Maximilian,& Grosvenor, Mary. A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament. Rome, 1988. ( and later )because though this analysis will give a very brief note on, e.g Mk 8:12 it was also refer the reader to the appropriate numbered section of Zerwick’s grammar.At 14:21 23/01/02, Erik Westwig wrote:>I’m a beginner and I’m having some trouble with Mark 8:12.> >My USB 4th Edition (Revised) has the Greek text:>KAI ANASTENAXAS TWi PNEUMATI AUTOU LEGEI, TI hH GENEA hAUTH ZHTEI SHMEION;>AMHN LEGW hUMIN, EI DOQHSETAI TH GENEA TAUTH SHMEIOV.> >which my RSV translates as:>And he sighed deeply in spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek for>a sign?>Truly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.”> >My trouble is with the second sentence. I don’t understand how they get>their negation (no sign shall be given).Maurice A. O’Sullivan [ Bray, Ireland ]mauros at iol.ie
Greek word in the Passover?Greek word in the Passover?
Mark 8:12 Jeffrey B. Gibson jgibson000 at attbi.com
Thu Jan 24 23:29:48 EST 2002
Mark 8:12 John 1:18 Steven Lo Vullo wrote:> On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 04:49 AM, Michael Haggett wrote:> > > MH: I would like to offer a slightly different view of the> > intended meaning which might make it a little easier to> > understand. Yes, I agree that it is an emphatic negation, but> > the missing apodosis can also (and sometimes better) be> > understood as illustrating the absurdity of the proposition,> > rather than as a self-malediction. We do the same sort of thing> > in English (at least here in Britain we do):> >> > “If this is a fresh apple pie, I’m a Dutchman!”> > “If he’s a musician, I’m the Queen of Sheba!”> >> > Which, with the right tone of voice, can very often be reduced> > to,> >> > “If he’s a musician … “> >> > meaning that the pie is obviously not fresh, and that the> > performer could by no stretch of the imagination be called a> > musician!> >> > Of course, it would be a very uninhibited translator that would> > put this into Jesus’ mouth:> >> > AMHN LEGW hUMIN, EI DOQHSETAI TH GENEA TAUTH SHMEION …> >> > “Yes! and I say to you: If a sign is given to this generation,> > I’m the Queen of Sheba!”> >> > And I certainly wouldn’t … but to my way of thinking it> > captures the tone of Mark 8:12 quite well.> > The main problem with this is that it has no parallel in the Hebrew> Bible or LXX, whereas the self-maledictory oath and the full conditional> sentence expressing the self-maledictory oath (in LXX) are attested, and> we must choose the most probable rather then the merely possible. The> above suggestion seems to be a case of reading modern idiom into an> ancient text. Besides, in the contexts in which we find this> construction, the tone is one of extreme gravity, not levity.I heartily second Steven’s judgment here, and add that the details that Mark gives inhis portrayal of(a) how Jesus saw the demand to which his oath EI DOQHSETAI TH GENEA TAUTH SHMEION isthe verbal response, namely, as an experience of PEIRASMOS, that is to say, anexperience in which he in which his faithfulness to God is being put to the test,(b) the emotional reaction that the demand elicits from Jesus, namely, one ofhorrified dismay at being placed in a position where his devotion to God may provefoolish of wanting (on this, see my articles “Mk. 8:12a. Why Does Jesus ‘SighDeeply’?” [_Technical Papers for the Bible Translator_ 38 (1987) pp. 122-125]and “Another Look at Why Jesus `Sighs Deeply’: ANASTENAZW in Mk. 8:12a” [Journalof Theological Studies 47 (1996) 1-10), and(c) the way Jesus prefaces his response with the solemnizing AMHNall contribute to show that Mark meant Jesus’ response to be seen as one in whichsomething of ultimate importance was at stake.And if I may engage in a shameless plug, let me point List Members who are interestedin seeing what it is that Mark is intent to present about the nature of the demand,the meaning of the term SHMEION APO TOU OURANOU, and why, in his eyes, Jesus refusesto produce what is sought from him, to my 1990 article “Jesus’ Refusal to Produce a’Sign’ (Mk. 8:11-13)” which appeared in Vol. 38 of the _Journal for the Study of theNew Testament_ (pp. 37-66) and to a slightly expanded version of the article in my_The Temptations of Jesus in Early Christianity_ (Sheffield, 1995).You may also be interested in seeing the discussion of the form and function of theoath of which Mk. 8:12 is one example in G.W. Buchanan, `Some Vow and Oath Formulasin the New Testament’, HTR 58 (1965), pp. 319-26, esp. pp. 324-25, where you will findit concluded that besides being a way of saying “no” forecfully, such oaths wereprimarily an expression of extreme revulsion, specifically the revulsion one feels atbeing asked to engage in activity that cuts against the grain of one’s integrity andthat one utters an oath of this kind to indicate abhorrence, to demonstrate howabsolutely imperative one feels is the necessity of avoiding the course of actionwhich the oath disavows.Yours,Jeffrey Gibson–Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)1500 W. Pratt Blvd. Floor 1Chicago, Illinois 60626e-mail jgibson000 at attbi.com jgibson000 at hotmail.com
Mark 8:12John 1:18
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Vasile Stancu stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
Tue Feb 12 06:48:34 EST 2008
[] EPILELHSMENON [] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… I understand… But if it is foreign to Greek, is it that we could get somehelp in understanding the Greek text by explaining the Semitic structurewhich the Greek had imported? I mean, is this a “rigorous” and logicalexpression in Hebrew? For if it is, then I think we should have no problemof understanding: along with the imported structure, we get the “User’sManual” for it. Vasile STANCU
[] EPILELHSMENON[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Vasile STANCU stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
Tue Feb 12 08:14:13 EST 2008
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… [] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, εἰ δοθήσεται τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ σημεῖον (Mk 8:12)AMH’N LE’GW hUMI~N, EI DOQH’SETAI THi~ GENEAi~ TAU’THi~ SHMEI~ON. ( (Mk 8:12))What would be the mechanism of a translator’s mind when reflecting a group of Greek words possibly/forcibly rendered by the English, “Truely I tell you, if a sign is given to this generation” by, for instance, “Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation”. (I believe most of the translations would be, to some extent, similar to this one). I am stressing especially the Greek εἰ (EI) turned by the translator into the English negative.My question is, more or less, rethorical – and I have my own understanding of this -, but I would like to know how/whether such a construction could be placed into a rigorous pattern with which one could operate when encountering other situations like this.Vasile STANCU
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Randall Buth randallbuth at gmail.com
Tue Feb 12 10:48:14 EST 2008
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… [] PAS in Colossians 1:15-20 and tense in v.20 Vasile egrapse>ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, εἰ δοθήσεται τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ σημεῖον (Mk 8:12)AMH’N LE’GW hUMI~N, EI DOQH’SETAI THi~ GENEAi~ TAU’THi~ SHMEI~ON. ( (Mk 8:12))What would be the mechanism of a translator’s mind when reflecting agroup of Greek words possibly/forcibly rendered by the English,”Truely I tell you, if a sign is given to this generation” by, forinstance, “Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to thisgeneration”. (I believe most of the translations would be, to someextent, similar to this one). I am stressing especially the Greek εἰ(EI) turned by the translator into the English negative.My question is, more or less, rethorical – and I have my ownunderstanding of this -, but I would like to know how/whether such aconstruction could be placed into a rigorous pattern with which onecould operate when encountering other situations like this.Vasile STANCU>RB: You are dealing with Semitic interference here. The structureentered the LXX from the Hebrew. I don’t think it ever settled intothe Greek system.It functions whereever one could go on to say ‘may I be struck dead’,but doesn’t say so. Of course, in the book of Hebrews, the speaker isGod who cannot take such an oath, but the idiom remains an exclamatorywith an implied negative.– Randall Buth, PhDwww.biblicalulpan.org
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…[] PAS in Colossians 1:15-20 and tense in v.20
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Carlton Winbery winberycl at earthlink.net
Tue Feb 12 17:47:33 EST 2008
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… [] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… >I understand… But if it is foreign to Greek, is it that we could get some>help in understanding the Greek text by explaining the Semitic structure>which the Greek had imported? I mean, is this a “rigorous” and logical>expression in Hebrew? For if it is, then I think we should have no problem>of understanding: along with the imported structure, we get the “User’s>Manual” for it.> > > >Vasile STANCU> >—> home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/> mailing list> at lists.ibiblio.org>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/The paragraph in BDAG seems helpful to me.4. marker of strong or solemn assertion, without apodosis (=in aposiopesis; B-D-F §482; Rob. 1203) EI EGNWSei if you only knew Lk 19:42. EI BOULEI PARENEGKAI if you would only let (this) pass 22:42 v.l. (cp. the letter fr. IV BC in Dssm., LO 120, note 5 [LAE 149]).-Hebraistic in oaths, like MIa EiM: may this or that happen to me, if . . . (cp. 2 Km 3:25; GBuchanan, HTR 58, ’65, 319-24); this amounts to a strong negation certainly not (cp. Ps 7:4f; Gen 14:23)AMHN LEGW hUMIN EI DOQHSETAI truly, I tell you, it will not be given Mk 8:12 (NColeman, JTS 28, 1927, 159-67 interprets this as strongly positive; against him FBurkitt, ibid. 274-76). EI EISELEUSONTAI they shall certainly not enter Hb 3:11; 4:3, 5 (all 3 Ps 94:11); B-D-F §372, 4; 454, 5; Mlt-H. 468f; Rob. 94; 1024.– Carlton L. WinberyRetired Professor of ReligionLouisiana College318-448-6103winberycl at earthlink.net
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Vasile Stancu stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
Tue Feb 12 17:06:20 EST 2008
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… [] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Thank you very much for the ressources you have indicated.Vasile—–Original Message—–From: Jeffrey B. Gibson [mailto:jgibson000 at comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:30 AMTo: Vasile StancuCc: at lists.ibiblio.orgSubject: Re: [] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…Vasile Stancu wrote:> I understand… But if it is foreign to Greek, is it that we could getsome> help in understanding the Greek text by explaining the Semitic structure> which the Greek had imported? I mean, is this a “rigorous” and logical> expression in Hebrew? For if it is, then I think we should have no problem> of understanding: along with the imported structure, we get the “User’s> Manual” for it.> > On the import of the oath and the Semitic formula which underlies the text of Mk. 8:12c, see E. Kautzch, ed. _Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar_ (1910), p. 471f.; P. Jouon, _Grammaire de l’Hebreu biblique_ (Paris, 1923), p. 505; and G.W. Buchanan, `Some Vow and Oath Formulas’, HTR 58 [1965], pp. 324-26.The oath is here abbreviated, as in Ps. 95:11, but on analogy with 2 Kings 6:31 may be filled out as `May I die’ or `may God curse me if I accede to your demand!’. On this, see Cf. V. Taylor, _The Gospel according to St Mark_ (London: Macmillan, 1955), p. 362; M.J. Lagrange, _L’ Évangile selon Saint Marc_ (Paris; Gabalda, 1929), p. 207; W.F. Howard, `Appendix on Semitisms in the New Testament’ in Vol. II of J.H. Moulton’s and Howard’s _A Grammar of New Testament Greek_ (Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1929), pp. 468-69.Jeffrey– Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)1500 W. Pratt Blvd.Chicago, Illinoise-mail jgibson000 at comcast.net
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Jeffrey B. Gibson jgibson000 at comcast.net
Tue Feb 12 18:30:22 EST 2008
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… [] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Vasile Stancu wrote:> I understand… But if it is foreign to Greek, is it that we could get some> help in understanding the Greek text by explaining the Semitic structure> which the Greek had imported? I mean, is this a “rigorous” and logical> expression in Hebrew? For if it is, then I think we should have no problem> of understanding: along with the imported structure, we get the “User’s> Manual” for it.> > On the import of the oath and the Semitic formula which underlies the text of Mk. 8:12c, see E. Kautzch, ed. _Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar_ (1910), p. 471f.; P. Jouon, _Grammaire de l’Hebreu biblique_ (Paris, 1923), p. 505; and G.W. Buchanan, `Some Vow and Oath Formulas’, HTR 58 [1965], pp. 324-26.The oath is here abbreviated, as in Ps. 95:11, but on analogy with 2 Kings 6:31 may be filled out as `May I die’ or `may God curse me if I accede to your demand!’. On this, see Cf. V. Taylor, _The Gospel according to St Mark_ (London: Macmillan, 1955), p. 362; M.J. Lagrange, _L’ Évangile selon Saint Marc_ (Paris; Gabalda, 1929), p. 207; W.F. Howard, `Appendix on Semitisms in the New Testament’ in Vol. II of J.H. Moulton’s and Howard’s _A Grammar of New Testament Greek_ (Edinburgh: T & T Clark, 1929), pp. 468-69.Jeffrey– Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)1500 W. Pratt Blvd.Chicago, Illinoise-mail jgibson000 at comcast.net
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI…
[] Mk 8:12 – … EI DOQH’SETAI… Vasile Stancu stancu at mail.dnttm.ro
Thu Feb 14 17:40:13 EST 2008
[] interested in more information about p. fouad 266 [] Is GRAFH in the singular used in Josephus or Philo for all the scriptures? When I read this passage for the first time, I was somewhat struck by itsformulation. However, not as if I felt it was strange or difficult tounderstand; on the contrary: it reminded me of the language I was so muchused to in my childhood, while living in a small, remote village in Romania.The language spoken there (even to this day) is in many aspects not inaccordance with the official, literary Romanian language. It contains manywords which a “city man” would not understand at all and, moreover, many ofthe gramatical structures are perhaps considered by others as mistaken.Expressions are commonly used that could be translated as “Listen to me, ifit is not so and so…” or, “I say, if so and so” or, “Pay attention, ifsuch and such”, all having a sense like “I tell you: that and that willnever (or, on the contrary: “surely”) be so and so…”. (Such situations areencountered, of course, in large rural areas, not just in my nativevillage). At least some of those who have expressed their desire to understand thisformula are hoping, I believe, to get an idea about the mindset that standsbehind it. And it for this reason that I am trying to read the mind of onewho uses it. Let me translate the situation we have with the old Greek text,to our time, by using an example which is actual to me. My wife tells me:”We have tomatoes in our garden that are just ripe”. “So it seems to you?” -I reply. “No!” she says, a little bit irritated, “it does not SEEM to me: IKNOW it!” Why this apparent dissagreement? Because, even though we both areusing common words, whose significance is very well known universally, themindset that stands behind my saying “So it seems to you?” is not souniversal as I would like it to be. But what do I mean when I say that?Well, this is difficult even for me to explain. It should be related to somekind of modesty of the countryman, who prefers to leave some room foralternatives, rather than declaring unequivocally something. It may bebecause instinctively he fears God and feels that there are so many thingsman cannot control. It may be because, living in an environment wheresecurity systems are scarcely available for the everyday life, he is verycareful in making statements that are (or seem to be) definitive. Or it maybe simply superstition. Coming back now to our expression in Greek, my understanding of the mindsetof one who uses it would be like this. A person is making a statement in thepresence of another person, in relation to something which is supposed tohappen in the future. Instead of simply saying, “I tell you: this will neverhappen”, as, for example, a teacher would say to the student, “It does notwork like that; drop it and try another way”, he is somewhat binding theother person to the same process saying: “I tell you this: this will neverhappen; you cannot escape it, nor can you ignore it. And you yourself willknow it later”, as the same teacher would tell the student: “I tell you thatFermat’s Last Theorem you cannot prove. Many have tried and failed. But try,if you wish, and you will see yourself that I was right”. Anyway, the expression is in use even today, in an environment which is,”seems to me”, far from any Semitic influence as far as the everydaylanguage is concerned. Vasile Stancu
[] interested in more information about p. fouad 266[] Is GRAFH in the singular used in Josephus or Philo for all the scriptures?
[] Mk 8:12 EI DOQHSETAI THi GENEAi TAUTHi SHMEION Daniel, Robert S rob.daniel at hp.com
Thu Sep 4 12:59:23 EDT 2008
[] different gospels [] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt If I understand the BDAG entry on this, this usage of EI is a hebraism that comes from an oath formula: “may such-and-such happen to me IF …” which BDAG says implies a strong negation, so in this case EI is translated “not” or “emphatically not.” Would it be possible to understand this passage differently? If there is an implied “may such-and-such happen to me” clause then could Jesus really mean here, not that NO sign will be given but that a sign will be given ONLY IF the unspoken “such-and-such” happens to him. I’m thinking of something we might loosely paraphrase in English as “May I be stricken dead if a sign is given to this generation.”? In other words could Jesus be understood here to be subtly hinting at his coming death and resurrection? It is only a few paragraphs later that he begins to teach his disciples that he must suffer and die and be raised on the third day. Also, in Matthew a similar passage has it that the only sign that will be given is the sign of Jonah, i.e. Jesus’ death and resurrection. Could Mk 8:12 be saying the same thing in a more cryptic manner?Rob
[] different gospels[] Diagramming Mt 4:24 Mt