Romans 8:16

Romans 8 16

Romans 8:16 Mitchell Gray shavedice at Fri Sep 10 01:30:07 EDT 1999   A new E-List dedicated to GMark Do prepositions govern or merely clarify case functions in Koine Greek? Dear list-members,How should Romans 8:16 be rendered: “The spirit *itself* bears witness withour spirit that we are God’s children.” Or, “The spirit *himself* bearswitness…

Luke 23:45

Lk.23 45

Lk.23:45 Ted Mann theomann at Tue Oct 9 11:54:11 EDT 2001   Luke 7:39 Lk.23:45 When Luke wrote EKLIPONTOS (Lk.23:45), did he have in mind an actual solareclipse, as a number of translations imply (e.g., Phillips, NEB), or wasthis just an idiomatic way of describing the darkening of the sun (e.g.,NIV, NASB), without intending…

Romans 1:16

Romans 1 16

Romans 1:16 Glen L Naftaniel glensmail at Thu Apr 4 22:17:01 EST 2002   why miniscule? why miniscule? Hello all,I am trying to better understand Rom 1:16: “OU GAR EPAISCHUNOMAI TO EUANGELION DUNAMIS GAR THEOU ESTIN EIS SOTERIAN PANTI TO PISTEUONTAI IUDAIO TE PROTON KAI hELLENI.”I have always thought that EUANGELION was the subject.…

Romans 4:11

New Testament • Romans 4:11

The relevant text: καὶ σημεῖον ἔλαβεν περιτομῆς, σφραγῖδα τῆς δικαιοσύνης τῆς πίστεως τῆς ἐν τῇ ἀκροβυστίᾳ, εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν πατέρα πάντων τῶν πιστευόντων δι’ ἀκροβυστίας, εἰς τὸ λογισθῆναι [καὶ] αὐτοῖς [τὴν] δικαιοσύνην,

My question concerns the last prepositional phrase εἰς τὸ λογισθῆναι [καὶ] αὐτοῖς [τὴν] δικαιοσύνην, The first prepositional phrase used the same construction, the preposition eis with the articular infinitive. The first phrase would seem to express the purpose of God in making Abraham the father of all who believe. Should the second phrase be understood as purpose or result, or is there some overlap in the two? Should the second phrase be applied to all those who believe, or should it be construed as the first phrase with the purpose of God. If the former, unbelievers would want to believe (one supposes) for the purpose of being imputed righteousness, but the fact that they do believe indicates that as a result they are imputed righteousness.

Thanks in advance,

Statistics: Posted by ronsnider1 — July 16th, 2014, 12:04 pm

1 Peter 1:15

New Testament • Re: 1 Peter 1:15 κατὰ τὸν καλέσαντα ὑμᾶς ἅγιον
Stephen Carlson wrote:

June 17th, 2017, 11:22 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:

June 15th, 2017, 3:17 pm

Several translations seem to translate κατά “just as”, giving a nice parallelism:
But can κατά really bend that way? Can you think of similar constructions where it is used like this? Or is there another justification for this kind of translation?

Translations are best thought of more of a guide to how someone interpreted the text rather than a commentary on the grammatical structures per se of the source text.

Of course, but translations seem to follow two very different ways of understanding this particular text. And these two different interpretations seem to be found in commentaries as well.

One interpretation takes ἅγιον to be a substantive, the other takes it to be a predicate complement.

Stephen Carlson wrote:

June 17th, 2017, 11:22 pm

A more literal ‘translation’ would be something like “in accordance with the holy one who called you” and even that does certain transformations like participle to relative clause, adding a “one” to substantive the adjective, etc. These transformations only become problematic with they seem to depart from fidelity to the sense of the source.

That’s a more literal translation of this interpretation (the one shown in my last post):



v.part καλέσαντα
o ὑμᾶς


And that agrees with Meyer, as quoted above. NET and NASB both understand the Greek text this way. Here is NASB:

NASB wrote:but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

I think I’ve persuaded myself that I like this understanding best. But ESV, HCSB, NIV, NLT, KJV, etc. are based on a different understanding of the Greek text. Here is ESV:

ESV wrote:but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,

That seems to follow this understanding of the text:

+ ἀλλὰ


s τὸν καλέσαντα ὑμᾶς
pc ἅγιον

s καὶ αὐτοὶ
pc ἅγιοι
+ ἐν πάσῃ ἀναστροφῇ
v γενήθητε

Expositor’s Greek argues for this interpretation:

Expositor’s Greek wrote:—ἅγιον is better taken as predicate than as substantive, since ὁ καλέσας (καλῶν) is well-established as a title of God in His relation to Gentile Christians (cf. 1 Peter 2:9, etc.)

Statistics: Posted by Jonathan Robie — June 18th, 2017, 12:07 pm

Revelation 15:2

New Testament • Re: νικάω +  ἐκ  in Rev. 15,2

As an addition, as I could not edit the former text: M. Psellus, In E. Nic. 549.6: “δυνατὸν δὲ αὐτοὺς νικῆσαι οὐκ ἐκ προφανοῦς πο- λέμου”. “it is possible now that they win not out of a forseen battle”. Same author (Oratoria min. 2.37: ” ἀλλ’ ἐπὶ τῷ μάχεσθαι νικᾶν τε καὶ εἰρήνην ἐκ πολέμου…

Romans 1:27

New Testament • Re: Romans 1:27

I don’t know if you would find this helpful, but a really technical analysis of Ancient Greek participles and their relation to the main verb is found here in a article by Dag Haug and Corien Bary: A poster of their views in brief can be found here: … poster.pdf

The participles you point out would be considered “elaborations” and their function is to provide more information about the main verb. They are not intended to interact with the time of the context (just that of the main verb) or to introduce a new event time into the discourse. In Wallace’s terms, they would be classified as a circumstance participle of manner or something like that.

Statistics: Posted by Stephen Carlson — February 14th, 2014, 4:31 pm

Mark 16:1

New Testament • Re: Levinsohn on Mark 16:1-8
Stephen Carlson wrote:

April 17th, 2017, 11:59 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:

April 17th, 2017, 8:12 pm

I am a concrete thinker, so part of what I am looking for is a clear understanding of the relationship between the topics at various levels – the sentence topic and the discourse topic in this passage, for instance.

As far as I can tell, there’s no simple relation between the two. They’re different things. The fact that they share the term “topic” seems to be creating expectations they are more closely related, but they are not.

I really do think I’ve heard some other people imply that there is a closer relationship than that, but those people may be confused too.

Stephen Carlson wrote:

April 17th, 2017, 11:59 pm

Lambrecht’s books has been very popular and influential. He provides (his own) definitions for topic and focus. It is similar to what Levinsohn is doing, but not identical. I think Levinsohn follows Simon Dik more (whom I haven’t read). So does Helma Dik.

I have Simon Dik’s book. It is very clearly written, I should work my way through it.

Stephen Carlson wrote:

April 17th, 2017, 11:59 pm

Levinsohn has actually published quite a bit. To understand him, that’s the first and best place to go. His coursebook, though dated, lays out several of the concepts, but he’s been updating them in other publications. Many of these are on his website. If you can read Spanish, you may find his introduction to his Galatians analysis helpful.

Thanks, I’ll look there. My … Spanish … is not great. But that kind of technical Spanish may or may not be possible.

Statistics: Posted by Jonathan Robie — April 18th, 2017, 10:19 am

Romans 1:23

New Testament • Re: Romans 1:23
ronsnider1 wrote:
My question relates to how one understands and classifies the genitive string in Romans 1:23 that follows the en clause. The entire phrase relates to that which was exchanged for the glory of the incorruptible God, but I am having a little trouble identifying the type of genitives used here.

καὶ ἤλλαξαν τὴν δόξαν τοῦ ἀφθάρτου θεοῦ ἐν ὁμοιώματι εἰκόνος φθαρτοῦ ἀνθρώπου καὶ πετεινῶν καὶ τετραπόδων καὶ ἑρπετῶν.

It’s pretty clear, I’d say, that εἰκόνος depends upon ὁμοιώματι and that φθαρτοῦ ἀνθρώπου καὶ πετεινῶν καὶ τετραπόδων καὶ ἑρπετῶν all depend upon εἰκόνος. I would think too that φθαρτοῦ, although linked directly with ἀνθρώπου, is implicitly understood also with the other genitive nouns as well. The four genitive nouns dependent on εἰκόνος all fall under the most basic category of adnominal genitives, whether you call it “possessive” or “genitive of belonging”. Categorizing the adnominal linkage of εικόνος to ὁμοιώματι is perhaps less clearcut (if it really matters — the meaning of the phrase is hardly in doubt!); I think I’d call it an “appositive” or “explanatory” genitive (cf. Smyth, §1322): “a likeness, i.e. an image of … “.

Statistics: Posted by cwconrad — January 30th, 2014, 11:08 am

Romans 10:20

Romans 10:20

Romans 10:20: Are all English translations in error? Richard r.vandenhengel at Sun Dec 1 04:03:27 EST 2002   Romans 10:20: Are all English translations in error? Steven Wrote:> I submit to you that no one approaching this text without a=20> preconceived (and wrong, IMO) theological notion derived from the=20> question of the relationship between…

Romans 15:13

Romans 15:13

Stephen Carlson wrote: OK, but that does not sound like the “same viewpoint” as expressed above. Oh? Then sorry I must have interpreted Hefin’s terminology wrongly. Statistics: Posted by David Lim — January 20th, 2014, 11:17 pm   David Lim wrote: Hefin J. Jones wrote:Coming back to this after a while – her Wittgenstein quote…

Romans 14:14

Romans 14:14

[bible passage=”Romans 14:14″] In the NT, the adjective KOINOS occurs twelve times.   In the A.V., it is translated as follows: “common” 7 times “unclean” 3 times “defiled” 1 time “unholy” 1 time   Three times it is translated as “unclean” and only in Romans 14:14.   In the Latin Vulgate of Romans 14:14, KOINON is translated by…

Romans 7:19

Romans 7:19


Thanks for he correction, you are right of course. You response highlights what I was trying to get at… namely are there a clear grammatical reasons for the way Paul constructs this passage or is do we have to rely more on logical inference for the antecedents? I am not sufficiently familiar with relative pronoun constructions to know if this is a typical structure. My observation for what its worth (very little probably) is that Paul has opted for a certain amount of rhetorical beauty and balance, a sort of aesthetic quality for effect, almost poetic! Obviously the over all context makes it clear what he means.

Paul Evans
Wilmington, NC

Statistics: Posted by Paul Evans — October 19th, 2013, 9:35 am